Eludecia the Succubus Paladin

[fenzer]

As I understand monster class progression, all levels of a given monster class must be taken before any other class levels. The succubus has an ECL of 12, 6 HD with a LA of 6. So why is Eludecia, the winner of the D&D Fight Club, with 2 levels of paladin shown as a 8th level character with a CR of 8? As I see it, her ECL should be 14, Succubus 12 and Paladin 2, with a CR of 9.

What am I missing? Thanks.

 

[domino]

I think, but am not sure, that monster class progression does not give racial HD.

 

[JimAde]

Where is the write-up? I don't see it on this page:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050510a#8

 

[Darkness]

The CR is easy. (Not sure about the level, though.)

They consider paladin a non-associated class (see MM, p.294) for a succubus and as such, it increases CR by 1 per 2 levels. (Until it reaches racial HD, anyway, but that's not yet relevant for a 6 HD/2 non-associated levels character.)

 

[radferth]

Sounds like they are using the 3.0 level adjustment rules from the DMG. Under these rules ECLs only affect what level of other PCs you should start with, the actual level of the character was straight HD + Level. So our succubus would be 8th level (6 HD + 2 levels) but the succubus (6 HD + 6 LA) would be ECL 12. I don't believe that they address how the ECL was affected by adding on additional character levels, as a succubus that starting adventuring with a 12th level party would start gaining levels a bit faster than everyone else. The fact that they would often confuse ECLs and LAs did not help matters. If the succubus is CR 7, then your analysis is correct for 3.5 rules.

 

[JimAde]

Ok, I found it.

ECL and CR are not the same thing, of course. This succubus with 2 paladin levels is, as you said, ECL 14, but still has a CR of 7. Then as Darkness says, you add only half the class levels.

Edit:
This is weird when the class levels start to outweigh the original monster abilities. I didn't look at the higher-level write-ups but if you had, say, 15 levels of paladin, you would get a CR of only 14, while a human with 15 levels of paladin is considered CR 15. Obviously goofy. At some point the class levels should add to the CR 1 for 1. Is there a rule for that?

 

[fenzer]

Thanks everyone. I can't say that things are much clearer but I think you have pointed me in the right direction.

Darkness, thanks for the non-associated class reference, it helps.

I am playing a succubus that I started at 1st level. When I saw the write up on Eludecia I became concerned thinking I may have missed something. I would love to add cleric or paladin class levels, love the charisma bonus , but can't.

Anyway, I will stick with the level progrees in savage species, pg 196.

 

[Sammael]

This is weird when the class levels start to outweigh the original monster abilities. I didn't look at the higher-level write-ups but if you had, say, 15 levels of paladin, you would get a CR of only 14, while a human with 15 levels of paladin is considered CR 15. Obviously goofy. At some point the class levels should add to the CR 1 for 1. Is there a rule for that?

Yes. After the class levels are equal to the racial HD, every additional class level adds +1 to the CR.

These days, though, I just guesstimate the CR based on my previous experiences. Adding 4 levels of sorcerer on a 20 HD creature doesn't really add even +2 to its CR, unless the creature has natural sorcerer spellcasting.

 

[Kelleris]

This is weird when the class levels start to outweigh the original monster abilities. I didn't look at the higher-level write-ups but if you had, say, 15 levels of paladin, you would get a CR of only 14, while a human with 15 levels of paladin is considered CR 15. Obviously goofy. At some point the class levels should add to the CR 1 for 1. Is there a rule for that?

Once the levels hit the monster's racial HD, it slows to a one-to-one progression. So a succubus Paladin 15 is actually CR 19, which seems about right to me.

 

[JimAde]

Ok. Thanks to Kelleris and Sammael. That does make sense.