Elven Resistance to Sleep

[Shade]

Disagree. For non-melee classes, strength is a dump stat, so gnomes and halflings are well off. For melee classes, the half orc isn't losing anything he needs.

Except skill points, which are already at a disadvantage.

My problem with the half-orc is that he isn't really gaining anything he needs, other than the +2 to Str. I'd take a dwarf and its truckload of useful benefits over the Str bonus any day.

Con's more important. Dex is nice for rogues, but halflings are better rogues. It's nice for fighters too, but the con hit hurts more than the dex bonus helps.

Interesting. In my experience, Dex is by far the most important stat in 3E. It modifies the most skills, many of them important ones that rely on ever-higher results (Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble). It factors into AC, initiative, ranged attack rolls, and Reflex saves. That's why I think elves make great wizards. Sure, they don't get an Int boost (but none of the core races do), but the Dex boost really helps the wizard, especially considering they can use bows. The hit to Con isn't insignificant, but I find it easier to get past, especially with spellcasters (who even with no Con penalty, still can't rely on hps to save them).

 

[Psion]

My problem with the half-orc is that he isn't really gaining anything he needs, other than the +2 to Str.

I.E., for melee-ers, he isn't getting anything he needs other than the most important thing he needs...

I'd take a dwarf and its truckload of useful benefits over the Str bonus any day.

Absolutely. I didn't say the half-orc was the best race, just better than an elf. The half-orc credibly tuned to a niche than an elf is. Dwarf is arguably the first or second best race in the PHB, depending on how you rate humans, so you aren't really making a comparison here that contradicts my stance.

 

[Shade]

I.E., for melee-ers, he isn't getting anything he needs other than the most important thing he needs...

I guess it all comes down to playstyles. Even when I play melee fighters, I like to have halfway-decent Listen, Spot, and Tumble skills.

With barbarian as a preferred class, I'd also argue that Con is needed more than Str (as it affects rage duration and survivability due to limited armor plus AC penalty during rage).

Absolutely. I didn't say the half-orc was the best race, just better than an elf. The half-orc credibly tuned to a niche than an elf is. Dwarf is arguably the first or second best race in the PHB, depending on how you rate humans, so you aren't really making a comparison here that contradicts my stance.

Yeah, I got a bit off track there.

Once again, I suppose it comes down to play style. I'd rather play an elven fighter than a half-orc, but I prefer to play agile, lightly-armored fighters. The half-orc definitely excels in a Power Attacking tank role.

 

[Land Outcast]

Actually, Elves perform GREAT at being Rangers... (the best ranger is the Archer ranger who moves in, shoots, and moves back away); Rangers never made very good front line fighters... too little hp anyways

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

3E has been out how long and we're still arguing elves vs dwarves? (Not like we weren't arguing the merits of those two races in OD&D, 1E, and 2E, but still ...)

 

[Victim]

And what, are your wizards seriously sneaking around past 2nd level without spells? The relative importance of attribute bonuses compared to skill ranks quickly drops as levels increase. Combine that with the importance of the die and having enough Dex to think about maybe sneaking around becomes worse than knowing you can't. Similarly, Escape Artist isn't going help cross classed.

A wizard is already pretty fragile, so gaining Dex at the expense of Con can be a loss for them even if it improves their defenses on average because it makes the lucky hit that does land all the more devastating. And there's plenty of stuff that doesn't use AC.

Half orcs are specialized. Sure, their skill points are bad. But a fighter would have bad skills anyway, so being a little worse is no big deal. Chances are, if you're playing a half orc, you don't much about your skills in the first place (or you have some other way to get the skills you want). But are you going to tell me that you don't care about your HP or Fort save?

In my group's experience, Con might not be many characters' primary stat, but it's never something anyone can dump. There aren't many characters for which I'd prioritize Dex over Con.

 

[Shade]

And what, are your wizards seriously sneaking around past 2nd level without spells? The relative importance of attribute bonuses compared to skill ranks quickly drops as levels increase. Combine that with the importance of the die and having enough Dex to think about maybe sneaking around becomes worse than knowing you can't. Similarly, Escape Artist isn't going help cross classed.

Yep, ability modifiers become less important. That's why the Con penalty bothers me even less. There are numerous spells to prevent you from getting hit, gain temporary hit points, become immune to near-everything. And that's where Init becomes even more important...you get to cast those spells before you get hit.

A wizard is already pretty fragile, so gaining Dex at the expense of Con can be a loss for them even if it improves their defenses on average because it makes the lucky hit that does land all the more devastating. And there's plenty of stuff that doesn't use AC.

I'm not saying I'm "right", but in my experience, Con is almost a non-factor for wizards. The party wizards are very effective in stacking resistances/immunities/preventions so that hit points themselves are much less of a factor than saving throws.

Half orcs are specialized. Sure, their skill points are bad. But a fighter would have bad skills anyway, so being a little worse is no big deal. Chances are, if you're playing a half orc, you don't much about your skills in the first place (or you have some other way to get the skills you want). But are you going to tell me that you don't care about your HP or Fort save?

Fort saves are never an issue for fighters. And yes, I do worry about my hp, but in my experience (having played an elven swordsman from 1st to currently 21st level), you can do just fine relying on Dex over Con.

In my group's experience, Con might not be many characters' primary stat, but it's never something anyone can dump. There aren't many characters for which I'd prioritize Dex over Con.

And in my experience, it's the opposite. Dex is the uber-stat in our campaigns. Only two characters have a higher Con score than Dex, and one only does so he could qualify for a feat (and bemoans his lower Dex).

Once again, I'm not saying I'm right, only that it all depends on play-style.

 

[Land Outcast]

Most of the time, a blow which would have killed an elven wizard would have killed a human wizard...

 

[gamecat]

I feel elven sleep immunity is a flavor mechanic - Elves don't sleep, they trance.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I feel elven sleep immunity is a flavor mechanic - Elves don't sleep, they trance.

Does the game need a trance spell specifically for elf-hunters?