Elven Trance, Spell Scrolls, Grappling & More: New Sage Advice

Jeremy Crawford's September Sage Advice column has appeared, and it deals with elven traces, thief features, various combat questions, plus a couple of queries about spells and scrolls. As usual, these questions and answers have also been added to the Sage Advice Compendium. "Elven Trance, spell scrolls, grappling, and other rules bits. This month, we touch on several rules questions that have come up quite a few times over the past year." (thanks to Ghost Matter for the scoop)

 

[Zalabim]

The wording on the grappling answer has me wondering if there's going to be a clarification on whether Shove or Grappling can be the melee attack used when an enemy triggers an OA, or if that's an Attack action only option. The wording in the book is weird. (It is plain that Multiattack wouldn't allow it, since multiattack allows specific activities.)

The level of light/darkness spells dispelled is spelled out in the book by spell level specifically, rather than relative to the spell's cast level, so the ruling is exactly RAW.

 

[barasawa]

The link to the pdf doesn't work for me unless I remove the "www." from it.

Sage Advice Compendium
Currently the link is:
http://www.media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.03.pdf

To make the link work, change it to:
http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.03.pdf

Just thought I'd point that out so it could get corrected.
Thanks

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Elven Trance - Really wish Jeremy would have specified if you can use those 4 hours of light activity for identifying magic items.

Fast Hands - Wait you can't use magic items as a bonus action? What about drinking a potion? Does that only work with Potion of Healing but not with other potions?

 

[Psikerlord#]

They aren't "nerfs", they are clarifications of intent for rules that failed to be clear in their intent.

Namely the Use an Object action being written in a way that doesn't bring an optional rule into consideration, and the misunderstanding of numerous people on what "the effects" of sleeping are according to the game rules.

No, they're straight up nerfs. It seems to me they changed the rules for fast hands because they realised it was OP in between PHB and DMG. And they simply changed the rules on trance. The entry for trance clearly says 4 hrs rest = 8 hrs rest. And fast hands, if you ignore the DMG caveat, very much works with magic items. "Use an object" is the Use magic item action.

I'm not saying they're bad nerfs. Fast hands is otherwise OP, and maybe even trance needs it. But they are definitely changes to the plain meaning in PHB for both.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

No, they're straight up nerfs. It seems to me they changed the rules for fast hands because they realised it was OP in between PHB and DMG. And they simply changed the rules on trance. The entry for trance clearly says 4 hrs rest = 8 hrs rest. And fast hands, if you ignore the DMG caveat, very much works with magic items. "Use an object" is the Use magic item action.

I'm not saying they're bad nerfs. Fast hands is otherwise OP, and maybe even trance needs it. But they are definitely changes to the plain meaning in PHB for both.

We'll just have to accept that we do not agree with each other, because where you see "nerfs" that "changed the rules" I see the PHB text for Use an Object not accounting for magic items because there are no magic items in the rules at that point, and I see elven trance as clearing addressing sleep, which is different from rest within the game rules even though they are often synonymous outside the game term definition of rest.

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't have much to disagree with the advices, but in general I have to say they are starting to give me a bad feeling... because they are strengthening the grips of one strict interpretation of stuff that really doesn't add to the game at all.

Who cares if an elf sleeps 4 hours and then rests 4 hours, while a human sleeps for 8 but then could sleep for 6 and rest for 2...? I guess some people do, but to me it adds only complexity for no benefit. I wish the game would rather say something about elves remaining more aware than others while resting, all the time. Then you know it's good to have an elf in the party because she will protect everyone from a night's ambush. Instead, this 4+4 hours is kind of suggesting that I should keep track of exactly at what hour the elf starts and ends trancing, because that's different from the rest of the party and whatnot... bullfiddling!

Similarly, I don't think it's such a good idea to be so strict about "interaction with one object is free, with more it is not free". How exactly this improves the game? The main effect is that melee fighters can use multiple attacks, archers can use multiple attacks, but knife-throwers cannot. And that improves the game... because? Why should the latter be penalized (considering they are already generally disadvantaged by having only a few "ammunitions" before running out)? The second effect is that you cannot switch a weapon on your turn unless you give up your main action. That's mostly how it worked in 3e, it's not a major problem, but it's a bit too strict for 5e which allows e.g. more freedom of movement (i.e. split up your move), why not allowing free switching of weapon during a battle? It's not that we have the "golf bag" effect as in 3e anymore... Once again, it's not wrong to require to waste a turn in order to switch weapon, it can be thought as a balancing rule so that the choice between starting with a ranged weapon and switch to melee VS start straight with melee, is a tactical choice. But as a default, I think it's more strict than needed.

All in all, my point is just that even if these sage advice are 99% fine for me, they start to sound annoying... instead of clearing up my doubts, they feel like dictating too much precision for my tastes.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I don't have much to disagree with the advices, but in general I have to say they are starting to give me a bad feeling... because they are strengthening the grips of one strict interpretation of stuff that really doesn't add to the game at all.

Who cares if an elf sleeps 4 hours and then rests 4 hours, while a human sleeps for 8 but then could sleep for 6 and rest for 2...? I guess some people do, but to me it adds only complexity for no benefit. I wish the game would rather say something about elves remaining more aware than others while resting, all the time. Then you know it's good to have an elf in the party because she will protect everyone from a night's ambush. Instead, this 4+4 hours is kind of suggesting that I should keep track of exactly at what hour the elf starts and ends trancing, because that's different from the rest of the party and whatnot... bullfiddling!

Similarly, I don't think it's such a good idea to be so strict about "interaction with one object is free, with more it is not free". How exactly this improves the game? The main effect is that melee fighters can use multiple attacks, archers can use multiple attacks, but knife-throwers cannot. And that improves the game... because? Why should the latter be penalized (considering they are already generally disadvantaged by having only a few "ammunitions" before running out)? The second effect is that you cannot switch a weapon on your turn unless you give up your main action. That's mostly how it worked in 3e, it's not a major problem, but it's a bit too strict for 5e which allows e.g. more freedom of movement (i.e. split up your move), why not allowing free switching of weapon during a battle? It's not that we have the "golf bag" effect as in 3e anymore... Once again, it's not wrong to require to waste a turn in order to switch weapon, it can be thought as a balancing rule so that the choice between starting with a ranged weapon and switch to melee VS start straight with melee, is a tactical choice. But as a default, I think it's more strict than needed.

All in all, my point is just that even if these sage advice are 99% fine for me, they start to sound annoying... instead of clearing up my doubts, they feel like dictating too much precision for my tastes.

Agree on the dual weapon drawing - I allow that as part of object interaction. Too much of a penalty for TWF who dont take the feat, otherwise.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I wouldn't take Sage Advice as telling anyone how they "have to" or are "supposed to" run their game, even if they sound like they are being very strict about interpretations.

It's important to remember that Sage Advice isn't meant to supersede the developers' stated mantra for this edition of "rulings, not rules," nor overpower the maxim that the rules are there to serve the DM, not the other way around.

They are just clarifying what was intended to be said by the rules in the book, and even then they have so far only clarified points that fans have asked for clarification on (not all fans, of course, just enough to get noticed).

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Sage Advice is always just a clarification on how unclear rules are actually meant. It never changes any rules, it just tells you "This is how we meant this rule, if you did it differently, you didn't do it as we intended it to work".

I for example am pretty strict on the rules, so I do everything exactly as written, including Sage Advice. I make sure characters only do one item interaction per turn or tell them they need to use their action for it (though as per official twitter clarification - I now allow dropping items to not count as objecti interaction). I also don't allow my cleric to cast non-material spells without a free hand. I do allow goodberry to stack with disciple of life.

There are lots of DM that aren't strict about the rules or even change the ones they don't like, but I personally like to play the game exactly as it's intended. (And I've yet to find a DM I can actually play with without being bothered by his rulings.)

 

[Henry]

For the trance thing, I see it less "nerf" and more "simplifying bookkeeping" because of the realities of actual play. In actuality most parties are mixed; having the elf be four hours "off-sync" from every other character means the elf has four hours diference from the group with nothing to do - however, if downtime is eight hours, whether it be sleep or stamp collecting, then travel schedules, watch schedules, etc. all line up for the party. Elves in our parties always seem to get the shaft for watch schedules -"hey you ain't doing anything, take two watch shifts!"