Elves Are Not Doomed!

[Particle_Man]

It was easier to buy the "elves are doomed" idea with 1st ed., when the elves were limited to 11th level as magic users, compared to the 30's for humans. But in 3rd ed., the very high level mages, druids, and clerics will all be elves or undead, because everyone else will simply die off.

Plus, in 3.5, every single elf, without exception, can use a longbow. That is quite the advantage.

 

[ashockney]

Oh, how great a day it is indeed, when I pull up the forums and see a SHARK post at the top.

Well met, again, my good man.

Excellent analysis, as always.

Extending that analysis into the fantasy worlds we game in, in the Forgotten Realms, which my campaigns have called home for the last 20 years (yikes!), the elves therin do many of the things you describe. By observing the maps of the realms, the elves find themselves routinely in locations of vastly superior strategic relevance and defensability: Myth Drannor, in the heart of Cormanthor (the largest forest on the planet), Evermeet (a floating fortress, guarded by the most superior navy on the seas by miles), Evereska (surrounded by impassable natural hazards (mountains), forest, and desert, Yuirwood, an elven stronghold in the heart of a mystical forest. A campaign against the elves would (and was indeed) a bloody and brutal affair. Elven High Magic clearly holds the place of highest and most powerful and effective spellcasting the realms has ever known (with perhaps the one notable exception of Karsus). The elves wield moonblades, and reading through the Elves of Evermeet or Ruins of Myth Drannor, artifacts and comparable relics seem almost commonplace. They are the most powerful and skilled craftsman and artisans the realms knows. In the heights of Myth Drannor, and now Silverymoon, they combine this expertise with the dwarves metalworking and human innovation to create new generations of magical tools and tactics (Blast Scepters, Harps of Myth Drannor, etc.). The "common man" among eles clearly has access to more powerful equipment and weapons. The elite forces (and there are many, many elites) are among the most well equipped, best trained, and most capable forces: Arcane Archers, High Magi, Leaders of the Houses of Evermeet, the Bladesingers, the Elven Armada, Elven Knights (astride Unicorn/Pegasi). The elves live primarily in "natural" habitats, except where they share homes with humans and dwarves. Taking their lands would leave you with densely forested land, natural homes (which may wither and rot away when unattended), and those things the elves hold in highest regard: beauty, nature, love, friendship, curiousity. Not exactly the kind of thing that most nations would find worthy to mount a devastating and costly campaign to acquire.

Well played, my friend.

 

[Drowbane]

welcome back SHARK!

Elves have long been touted as great and mighty wizards or otherwise having some sort of advantage when it comes to spellcasting.

Quite simply, this isn't backed up mechanically... and it never has been in D&D.



That said, my homebrew elves (fey, native outsiders) are known for mastery of the sword and bow as well as an innate connection to the Green (yay druids!). NPC Elven arcanists are extremely rare... outcast "dark elves" each. My homebrew leaves Black (arcane) Magic to the humans and other "lesser races".

 

[ashockney]

Elves have long been touted as great and mighty wizards or otherwise having some sort of advantage when it comes to spellcasting.

Quite simply, this isn't backed up mechanically... and it never has been in D&D.

(points politely to Elves of Evermeet, Elven High Magic, and Elven Ceremonial casting)

At least for the FR...

 

[NewJeffCT]

I see no reason why elves can't be a strong & viable race - however, I don't see nearly as many Commoner 1s among elves as I do among other shorter-lived races. I would see most elves as having 1 or 2 levels in a regular class, be it druid, mage, fighter, scout, ranger, etc and maybe 1-2 levels in an NPC class or two (Expert, or Aristocrat for aristocratic elves) But, I do agree that too many worlds make elves into a dying race, or at least a race in decline.

 

[Drowbane]

(points politely to Elves of Evermeet, Elven High Magic, and Elven Ceremonial casting)

At least for the FR...

Elves of Evermeet: what about them?
Elven High Magic: just Epic magic used by elves. Not much different than what the Chosen of Mystra or the settings BBEGs use. Right?
Elven Ceremonial casting: I'm not up on my FR anymore... what is this? Anything like Red Wizard circles? Or what the Hathran use?

I would guess that FR has alot more human Uber-Casters than it does elven Uber-Casters.

*Chosen of Mystra (all human, save the drow-Sister... iirc)
*Red Wizards of Thay (I'd guess most of the Zulkir are epic or near epic)
*Larloch, Manshoon, Halaster Blackcloak, and other BBEG Mages of the Realms (tm)

My FR-fu is a bit rusty... feel free to correct any inaccuracies (spelling?)

My point is that mechanically, there is nothing about elves as a race (other than long life) that would make them superior casters. And the next time you're getting ready to start in with fresh 1st level characters, try running "but my elf is 200yrs old, shouldn't he be at least lvl 10?" by your DM (that is, age means squat). Just a whole lot of Fluff about how elves are uber-casters... wheres the beef?

 

[Particle_Man]

It might be that the uber-high level elf casters are busy doing stuff on other planes. That is what uber-high level parties tend to do anyways.

 

[The Green Adam]

Thank you Shark, as always you see more then one side of a given idea.

I'm on that other thread and I'll admit to having certain elements of the subject push my buttons, which is no small feet since the button are only for show and don't really activate anything (it's just set decoration after all ).

However, Elves are a major force to be reckoned with in my campaigns and always have been. I have used the Tolkiens Elves, D&D Elves, Welsh, Scottish and Irish Folklore and used all of this as an inspiration for my Elves, not as the gospel burned into stone from on high. Also after 30 years of gaming, the cultural, art, music, food and customs of the Elves, even among the sub-races, have grown and changed. They are not all one thing just as humans are not all one way. They High Elves are more militant since their kingdom was founded by a female warrior and her followers. The Wood Elves are Merchants, Hunters and Farmers with many skilled craftsmen with a love of the land. No two Elven groups are exactly the same though they share the same history and of course physical attributes. A most distinctive example of this are my Half-Elves. These are not shunned half breeds or unique beings. They are a race with a land and a culture all their own. Humans and Elves on a busy port island have been mating for so many centuries that they are a species on to themselves. Remember, if a Half-Elf has kids with a Half-Elf the children are...wait for it...Half-Elves!

As far as doomed, hardly! Why would they be? The idea of the Elves departure in Tolkien's books was a metaphor for the magic going away as you grow up and the real world sets in. There is no chance of that on my world. It's a fantasy world, it always was and it always will be. Knights slay monsters, Elves trade with Dwarves and living Golems sit down to dinner with Homonculi. Unless the whole world runs out of food, water, livible conditions and their mystical power crystals are all destroyed, Elves are going anywhere.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Well, it seems that I am the only one to risk the bite of the Shark with a simple point. The dying elven nation is actually one of my main themes in my current campaign here in ENWorld. The elves are hopelessly doomed, just as the dragons are doomed in literature. No one would deny that elves and dragons are powerful races, however it is not to the powerful that the world belongs but instead to the quick.

Let's say the average human lives to 70 years old and an elf to 350 years old. So an elf lives five times as long as a human. In a block of 350 years an elven couple might have 2.5 children, which means an increase in the elven population of 25%. An elven settlement of 1000 will have 1250 elves in 350 years. In the same block of 350 years five generations of humans have 2.5 children each, for a family's population increase of 6.1 by the end of the 350 year block. So a human population of 1000 will have 3052 people by the end of the 350 year time block, or almost 3 times the population. Let's hope for the elves sake that they aren't the typical land-hungry humans.

But look... on the northern border of the elven lands are some orc tribes. Now these folk are even shorter lived than those pesky humans and more aggressive, every one a warrior. Now they live to about 50 years of age, and each orc couple has 2.5 children also. That means that in 350 years there are 9.5 family members per original couple, and a villages population of 1000 orcs will have 4769 orcs by the end of a 350 year time period, or more than 4 times the population of the elves.

So now the orc horde decides to attack every generation, because well... that's what orcs do. After the devestating conflict the orcs are ready to go about it again in about 15-25 years, just long enough for the human population to repopulate and withstand them. The new elven generation aren't even teenagers yet and are unlikely to constitute a fighting force. The orcs or humans won't wipe out an elven nation within a 100 years, or maybe not even in a thousand, but as time passes the orcs and humans continue to breed while the elves continue to fade away in both population and influence until they either must flee to lands unaccessible to others or be skewered beneath their torched Great Tree.

There are actually real-life parallels to great fallen or falling civilizations in history and in modern times, for those interested, for example the Roman Empire.

 

[Slife]

It was easier to buy the "elves are doomed" idea with 1st ed., when the elves were limited to 11th level as magic users, compared to the 30's for humans. But in 3rd ed., the very high level mages, druids, and clerics will all be elves or undead, because everyone else will simply die off.

There are ways to easily avoid the maximum age limit.

Also, knowing the lay of the land doesn't do you much good when the land isn't there anymore