Elves, why so long to mature?

[mmadsen]

Speaking of longevity comparisons between humans and other species, I recently read a reference to Cheeta, chimpanzee movie star from the old Tarzan movies. He's 71 years old!

From the CHEETA Primate Sanctuary site:

Cheeta the Chimp is the most well known star at the sanctuary and is the oldest at 71. He was recently dubbed the oldest chimpanzee by Guinness Book of World Records.

In the wild, chimps die at half that age.

 

[Banshee16]

It's been several years since I've taken similar subjects. I agree - generally - with your statements, but it also depends upon the societal developmental level. Generally, children in our - Western - world develop their mental capabilities in (according to the developmental psychologist, Piaget) four stages, the fourth of these being what is known as Formal Operational. More "primitive" cultures only develop to the third - Concrete Operational - stage, meaning that they have difficulties reasoning logically about - for instance - ideas contrary to their personal beliefs.

I'm no psychologist (I remember the above info. from when I was studying HISTORY, of all things!), but I would tend to assume that a race with a predilection for nature, such as elves, would tend to develop at quite a different rate to 21st century mankind, and would not be surprised to find their entire cognitive process alien to ours.

I agree...it would be alien....but I don't think that means they have to be retarded. Keep in mind that a race where the young are dependent for over 100 years would be at a severe disadvantage. I think just about everyone can relate to how many close calls they had and risks they took as children....now imagine that 14 year period was extended for another 80 years, and consider if you'd actually have made it through childhood.

Piaget's developmental stages are a theory, but a very good one, as it is falsifiable, and tends to work. But it's not just culture specific. Doesn't matter whether the baby is born in North America or the middle of Asia....I'm pretty sure it's been displayed to apply in both cases.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

Dogs of wolves are not classified are different species (at least, not correctly). The definition of species is based on the ability to interbreed. If they can interbreed, they are the same species, by the definition of the word.

See http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=species

glass.

Dogs and wolves are separate species. Separate species *can* produce offspring, and even fertile offspring together. It's just less likely.

There are cases where a mule can breed and produce offspring. Whether two mules can breed true to create a new mule, or whether you'd get a horse or a donkey, that I don't know.

Wolves are Canis Lupus, of the Order Carnivora, and Family Canidae.

Dogs (whether poodle, lab retriever, or Chow Chow) are all Canis Familiaris, of the Order Carnivora, and Family Canidae. I believe researchers actually find that dogs didn't descend from wolves so much as from wild dogs. This last part could be incorrect.

Banshee

 

[Snapdragyn]

Once again I must point out that dogs and wolves ARE NOT universally considered separate species. As previously stated, the National Museum of Natural History of the Smithsonian classifies dogs as Canis lupus familiaris -- a domesticated subspecies of grey wolf, NOT a separate species. This is the same classification used in Wilson, D. E., and D. M. Reeder (eds) (1993. Mammal Species of the World. Smithsonian Institution Press), which is one of the two (off the top of my head) main works on mammalian species currently in publication. Corbett & Hill (the other main work) does consider them separate species; thus, it's probably best not to present it as a settled matter as some here seem determined to do.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I'm sure it's been posted a thousand times in a thousand different places but why do elves take so long to mature? Are they slow learners? Are their kids born really stupid? I jest but really why do they take so long? Is there any definitive reason for this? I know what the PHB says but there has to be better explanations of this out there? Anyone?

Well, Tolkein says that time passes differently for elves than it does for the other races in Middle Earth. Seasons, and even years, can pass by almost as though they are dreaming. This is discussed a little in Lothlorian, in The Two Towers, and is worth looking at. My paraphrase may suck.

Of course, D&D elves are not LOTR elves, but it is an explaination that may work. Folklore is full of stories where faerie time passes differently than mundane time (think Rip Van Winkle or Oisin) (sp?) and you'll get the idea. Elves may not be fay in D&D, but they are about as closely linked as a humanoid can get.

Raven

 

[Raven Crowking]

I have to disagree with the last statement here. Humans and elves cannot be seperate species, because (in D&D, at least) they can produce fertile offspring.

In the real world, we know that horses and donkeys are seperate species because although they can produce offspring together (mules), that offspring is in fact always sterile. In a world without genetic evaluation, that's really the only way to tell.

If that was the case, then lions and tigers would be the same species, because they can be crossbred, and they can have fertile offspring. You would also have to drastically reduce the number of bird species.

However, in a world where dragons can fly and breath fire, dwarves can forge magical armor, and some old guy with a stick can call down fiery rain from the heavens, a little interspecies breeding hardly seems like a stretch.

Raven Crowking

 

[Raven Crowking]

Well i see i got lots of iuseful info regarding this topic, but say for instance i have this idea for a elf. Say he is found by nomads. The nomads find him as a child who doesn't know his language at all yet. He's taken in by these nomads who then chose to bring him up as their own. What would you say his maturity cycle/ time frame should be then? They are human, they have chosen to keep this child for any number of reasons and bring him up as their own So all other questions about why they would do this or what the details are about the exact people, we just assume they are nomads like say the Wolf Nomads in the world of Greyhawk and go from there on how he would mature.

If you can dig up the first Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan novel, it would be worthwhile to read it, because the relationship between Tarzan and the Great Apes is actually simular to what you are looking at here. The Great Apes mature far more quickly than Tarzan does, and are far more able to take care of themselves while maturing. But, when Tarzan matures, the jungle stands up and takes notice....

Actually, you could pick up Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book, and look at the relationship between Mowgli and the Seeonee Wolf Pack. Same thing.

Raven Crowking

 

[Raven Crowking]

Well i see i got lots of iuseful info regarding this topic, but say for instance i have this idea for a elf. Say he is found by nomads. The nomads find him as a child who doesn't know his language at all yet. He's taken in by these nomads who then chose to bring him up as their own. What would you say his maturity cycle/ time frame should be then? They are human, they have chosen to keep this child for any number of reasons and bring him up as their own So all other questions about why they would do this or what the details are about the exact people, we just assume they are nomads like say the Wolf Nomads in the world of Greyhawk and go from there on how he would mature.

If you can dig up the first Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan novel, it would be worthwhile to read it, because the relationship between Tarzan and the Great Apes is actually simular to what you are looking at here. The Great Apes mature far more quickly than Tarzan does, and are far more able to take care of themselves while maturing. But, when Tarzan matures, the jungle stands up and takes notice....

Actually, you could pick up Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book, and look at the relationship between Mowgli and the Seeonee Wolf Pack. Same thing.

Raven Crowking

 

[Raven Crowking]

Well i see i got lots of iuseful info regarding this topic, but say for instance i have this idea for a elf. Say he is found by nomads. The nomads find him as a child who doesn't know his language at all yet. He's taken in by these nomads who then chose to bring him up as their own. What would you say his maturity cycle/ time frame should be then? They are human, they have chosen to keep this child for any number of reasons and bring him up as their own So all other questions about why they would do this or what the details are about the exact people, we just assume they are nomads like say the Wolf Nomads in the world of Greyhawk and go from there on how he would mature.

If you can dig up the first Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan novel, it would be worthwhile to read it, because the relationship between Tarzan and the Great Apes is actually simular to what you are looking at here. The Great Apes mature far more quickly than Tarzan does, and are far more able to take care of themselves while maturing. But, when Tarzan matures, the jungle stands up and takes notice....

Actually, you could pick up Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book, and look at the relationship between Mowgli and the Seeonee Wolf Pack. Same thing.

Raven Crowking

 

[Crass]

I agree...it would be alien....but I don't think that means they have to be retarded. Keep in mind that a race where the young are dependent for over 100 years would be at a severe disadvantage. I think just about everyone can relate to how many close calls they had and risks they took as children....now imagine that 14 year period was extended for another 80 years, and consider if you'd actually have made it through childhood.

Piaget's developmental stages are a theory, but a very good one, as it is falsifiable, and tends to work. But it's not just culture specific. Doesn't matter whether the baby is born in North America or the middle of Asia....I'm pretty sure it's been displayed to apply in both cases.

Banshee

No, they would not be retarded - their minds would probably just work in ways that would seem incomprehensible to us. (Heck, I have enough difficulty trying to understand female minds from my OWN culture!) I wrote my previous post in a most clumsy fashion, if it seemed that what I was saying is that they would be regarded as such. What I MEANT to say was that various cultures have different ways of thinking, and that cultures that do not need - or do not have the time/leisure/resources - to develop in a certain fashion will not do so.

As for your point on close calls, if my childhood were to last a century I doubt that I would last the distance - I had far too many close calls in my first 15 years, not to mention the next 15