Ema's RPG Sheet Website down...

[dinelendarkstar]

I would say your avatar most certainly violates IP.

And, yup, they could ask them to be taken down. Granted, it's not worth the money or the hassle, so it's pretty unlikely to happen, but, they would most certainly be within their rights to do so.

Now, if a situation arose where Morrus started charging for "premium avatars" and was using your image, would your opinion change?

I think that you misunder stand where I am coming from here. This site does get money for the right to have special member perks, even a special Avatar option. So when it comes to the discussion of what is the difference between how Ema made money, selling a premium service and used WotC IP on the site and what this site does in all honestly is the same.

If you are asking what if it was MY art that was used? I say cool it gets people seeing it and wanting to know where it comes from. Free advertising. Always the best kind.

Am I saying that WotC should stomp in, no! That would be a stupid move. But in the end it is all the same.

Also I would like to make myself clear on a few points before I continue the dialog I started, in regards to other replies to my posts.

1. I am not looking for anyones official legal advice, nor would I hunt for it here. Nor am I asking for an outcry of any kind, I simply asked for people's opinion.
2. I asked for the opinion of this community to create a dialog with them on a subject that affects a lot of us in one way or another.
3. Am I not taking Ema's side and I am not taking WotC side. I am taking my own side and speaking as an idividual who has a lot at stake in the the current events.
4. Whether anyone deams my opinion stupid or silly or whater is ok by me. They have as much right to their Opinion as I do to mine. And after all this is what I asked for, people's opinion.
5. That said I am not here to bash or flame anyone, and I would hope the same in return, but again everyones opinion, no matter what form it come in is appriciated.

​

One thing I have learned being a member of this community, if you want to know what is going on in the RPG world, you can usually find most of that here by just asking.

 

[dinelendarkstar]

... If you have a problem, act professionally and take action.

Nothing about Ema's situation sends up any red flags as it pertains to your business. What he did was illegal, pure and simple. He admits as such. If you aren't doing anything illegal then you shouldn't have to worry. If you don't know if what you are doing is illegal then you need to talk to a lawyer, fast.

As far as I can tell, this is all pretty clear.

As far as the being professional, I feel that we have been very professional in our dealings with WotC. And I know that we will continue to be. Whether they choose the same path, I can not speak for.

I am not of the sue over everything mentality. I am of the "hey we are all on the same team here," way of looking at things.

I would rather have a healthy business enviornment between RPG companies where colaboration is rewarded not hindered.

As for Ema,

I read it as he pleaded No contest, he only said the ISP did the right thing. He never said he did anything wrong.

 

[Dire Bare]

Exactally healthy competition is a good thing for business. It makes the competitors have to keep progressing to the benefit of the consumer.So what is WotC's problem? It seems that they are afraid of that competition (IMO). And that is all it is, an opinion.

Or is this Competition ala Microsofts school of business? Not that I need to open that can but oh well.

Please. How many companies allow their competitors to use their own work? Reacting to your competition to improve your product and allowing your competition to use your own work are two different things.

There are a number of fan character sheets and character generators out there that WotC has left alone. Why did WotC single Ema out? Because Ema used their IP to compete with them. Only a fool would allow this to continue. If Ema's generator was like so many others out there, and didn't use WotC IP, he'd never have receive a C&D.

Just by your tone of argument I'm convinced of one thing, you don't have a case against WotC and there is no infringement on WotC's part against HeroForge.

But as long as you keep HeroForge clean of protected WotC IP, you'll be fine.

 

[Dire Bare]

I think that you misunder stand where I am coming from here. This site does get money for the right to have special member perks, even a special Avatar option. So when it comes to the discussion of what is the difference between how Ema made money, selling a premium service and used WotC IP on the site and what this site does in all honestly is the same.

There's a huge difference. Ema infringed on WotC IP in a major way and in direct competition to WotC products. He got a C&D. The use of WotC artwork for messageboard avatars infringes on WotC IP in a minor way that does not compete with WotC products. ENWorld (and many other D&D fansites) have not received a C&D. Simple.

The money ENWorld charges for "premium" membership has nothing to do with avatar pictures. The money Ema charged had everything to do with his IP violation.

 

[Dire Bare]

As far as the being professional, I feel that we have been very professional in our dealings with WotC. And I know that we will continue to be. Whether they choose the same path, I can not speak for.

Just my opinion of course, but I don't think it is very professional to imply that a company, especially a company you wish to have a working relationship with, has stolen your IP. It may be true, but bringing it up in a public forum like this is quite unprofessional, IMO.

Note how no one from WotC dropped by on ENWorld before Ema got his C&D and started throwing around how Ema's a big IP infringer. They simply gathered the facts, decided how to respond, and then sent the C&D. Ema complied with the C&D, and the situation is resolved and over. Well, except for internet fan angst, that is. If WotC had decided that Ema wasn't infringing, or that his infringement wasn't worth legal action, we'd never have even heard about it.

 

[dinelendarkstar]

Please. How many companies allow their competitors to use their own work? Reacting to your competition to improve your product and allowing your competition to use your own work are two different things.

There are a number of fan character sheets and character generators out there that WotC has left alone. Why did WotC single Ema out? Because Ema used their IP to compete with them. Only a fool would allow this to continue. If Ema's generator was like so many others out there, and didn't use WotC IP, he'd never have receive a C&D.

Just by your tone of argument I'm convinced of one thing, you don't have a case against WotC and there is no infringement on WotC's part against HeroForge.

But as long as you keep HeroForge clean of protected WotC IP, you'll be fine.

My tone of argument? What argument? Last I checked I am not arguing anything. Unless the word opinion = argument to you?

As far as my feeling on what WotC might have or not have gotten from HF, I don't really care in the end, because imitation is the highest form of flattery. But I only speak for me right now not as or for HF.

And really that is what I would like to see. Open colaberation between WotC and the companies that want to support their products. Could actually prove to be more profitable for all parties especially WotC.

Here's a good one.

How many of you out there, and don't lie, have ever used a pirated peice of software or downloaded a illegal music file or movie, just to in the end go buy an actual copy?

In the end the company still made it's money and lost nothing. People are still going to buy the books and get their D&DI accounts no matter what other options are out there.

 

[tomBitonti]

Please. How many companies allow their competitors to use their own work? Reacting to your competition to improve your product and allowing your competition to use your own work are two different things.

There are a number of fan character sheets and character generators out there that WotC has left alone. Why did WotC single Ema out? Because Ema used their IP to compete with them. Only a fool would allow this to continue. If Ema's generator was like so many others out there, and didn't use WotC IP, he'd never have receive a C&D.

I don't think that simply creating character sheets or character generators is infringing. (See my earlier posts, where I argued that such products, if they do not imbed too much protected content, were transformative, and therefore fair use. For example, a list of feats that includes the feat names but does not include the full original text of the feats is fair use. A list that exactly reproduces the full original text is not fair use.)

Note how no one from WotC dropped by on ENWorld before Ema got his C&D and started throwing around how Ema's a big IP infringer. They simply gathered the facts, decided how to respond, and then sent the C&D. Ema complied with the C&D, and the situation is resolved and over. Well, except for internet fan angst, that is. If WotC had decided that Ema wasn't infringing, or that his infringement wasn't worth legal action, we'd never have even heard about it.

I don't think that WotC would post such comments in any case in a public forum. That sounds defamatory, and right or wrong, I'm thinking they would very much avoid making such a statement.

 

[xechnao]

My opinion is that Wotc wants the less direct competition possible for its commercial products. If you do compete pay attention to cover your ass by the law.

 

[dinelendarkstar]

Just my opinion of course, but I don't think it is very professional to imply that a company, especially a company you wish to have a working relationship with, has stolen your IP. It may be true, but bringing it up in a public forum like this is quite unprofessional, IMO.

Note how no one from WotC dropped by on ENWorld before Ema got his C&D and started throwing around how Ema's a big IP infringer. They simply gathered the facts, decided how to respond, and then sent the C&D. Ema complied with the C&D, and the situation is resolved and over. Well, except for internet fan angst, that is. If WotC had decided that Ema wasn't infringing, or that his infringement wasn't worth legal action, we'd never have even heard about it.

But this is a very public matter. It affects the public that wants to use alternate game aids and are being denied the option. Is this not a discussion about IP infringment? Im just stating how I see other companies, namely the one acting upon their said IP being infringed, doing the same thing IMO, be that as it may.

Again the difference is I really don't care if they did it or not, intentional or not, reality or not. Because again I choose to look at it as, if that is the reality, wow what a compliment that would be.

Hats off to what WotC has done with their Character Builder, can't wait to see the game table, but given my choice I would like to see more options open the the Public, the consumer.

 

[xechnao]

But this is a very public matter. It affects the public that wants to use alternate game aids and are being denied the option. Is this not a discussion about IP infringment? Im just stating how I see other companies, namely the one acting upon their said IP being infringed, doing the same thing IMO, be that as it may.

Again the difference is I really don't care if they did it or not, intentional or not, reality or not. Because again I choose to look at it as, if that is the reality, wow what a compliment that would be.

Hats off to what WotC has done with their Character Builder, can't wait to see the game table, but given my choice I would like to see more options open the the Public, the consumer.

The public wants a lot of things changed regarding what there is now in the world. It is struggling with the current system. It is not something automatic, easy and that simple that we can solve in a forum -even for the specific case here which is rather deeper I think regarding what a forum discussion can do.