Ema's RPG Sheet Website down...

[mxyzplk]

You know, any speculation about mxyzplk's agenda aside, he's basically correct. A fan site built around a company's (or individual's) IP absolutely exists at the IP owner's pleasure, unless it is very, very careful about its content.

Does that mean WotC is going to shut down ENWorld? Why would it? ENWorld's relationship to the D&D brand is positive and both sides benefit. So long as that remains the case, why would WotC take draconian steps?

It seems (and I have no direct experience) that Ema overstepped the appropriate bounds of his relationship with D&D. WotC acted in a manner that seems (again, no direct experience) pretty appropriate. Nothing that has happened indicates any sort of sea change in WotC policy.

Yes, WotC could almost certainly shut down ENWorld if it suddenly got the urge. If you don't like that, there's a simple way to avoid it happening: Continue to support ENWorld as the cordial, welcoming, non-IP-abusing site it's always been. I don't think WotC's ever going to come after ENWorld unless given a very, very compelling reason.

I definitely have an "agenda" in that I dislike 4e and think that Wizards' retreat from the OGL and openness in general is a threat to D&D, the gaming industry, and gamers like ourselves. So I own up there.

But is the solution really "be a site that Wizards likes?" Sure, ENWorld may pull that off, but is that the answer to the thousand other fansites? "You can exist as long as they like you?"

That's like saying "I don't see anything wrong with slavery, I'm the favored house slave! No beatings for me!" It only lasts as long as you're in good with the master, and sure doesn't help the other individuals.

 

[crazy_cat]

That's like saying "I don't see anything wrong with slavery, I'm the favored house slave! No beatings for me!" It only lasts as long as you're in good with the master, and sure doesn't help the other individuals.

Thats one of the most ridiculous comparisons I've ever heard.

My moneys on the thread being Godwin'd and/or closed within ten posts maximum.

 

[catsclaw227]

I definitely have an "agenda" in that I dislike 4e and think that Wizards' retreat from the OGL and openness in general is a threat to D&D, the gaming industry, and gamers like ourselves. So I own up there.

OK, this is fair and you are entitled to feel this way. I completely disagree that a retreat from the OGL is a threat to D&D, though this isn't the topic of this thread.

But is the solution really "be a site that Wizards likes?" Sure, ENWorld may pull that off, but is that the answer to the thousand other fansites? "You can exist as long as they like you?"

That's like saying "I don't see anything wrong with slavery, I'm the favored house slave! No beatings for me!" It only lasts as long as you're in good with the master, and sure doesn't help the other individuals.

And here I think, again, you are stretching it quite a bit. None of this has happened, and fanning the flames with fear tactics doesn't help.

I read your most recent comment on your blog, and you make some good points, especially about a clear-cut fan site policy.

But you can't use quotes around the word "charging" in context to what Ema was doing. That is swaying the argument in a clearly biased direction and not looking objectively at the situation.

(But.... admittedly, it IS a blog site, and objectivity is not the keystone that holds these sites up. )

Ema was charging, not "charging" for services. He was asking for pay to keep power cards and sheets online with closed content, allowing for visibility to protected full text descriptions of 4e content.

If I recall, he was running ads (at least he was when I last visited) and had even had a Paypal donation option at one time to cover hosting costs.

I am pretty sure that WOTC would NOT have shut him down for that. He decided to make a business out of protected content. This is not cool in the eyes of WOTC, nor would it be for most any other RPG Publisher out there.

How would Paizo handle it if I was selling content that utilized protected content about Golarian without their permission? They just might send me a C&D as well. Maybe, maybe not. But I certainly wouldn't begrudge them if they did.

 

[dinelendarkstar]

Do you have a patent for these features? In general, software features aren't covered by copyright law. WotC is allowed to use your ideas without compensating you, just as you are allowed to use the idea of a character defined by his STR, CON, DEX, INT, WIS, and CHA scores without compensating them.

From Copyright Basics on the US gov site for Copyright:

Copyrightable works include the following categories:
1 literary works
2 musical works, including any accompanying words
3 dramatic works, including any accompanying music
4 pantomimes and choreographic works
5 pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
6 motion pictures and other audiovisual works
7 sound recordings
8 architectural works
These categories should be viewed broadly. For example, computer programs and most “compilations” may be registered as “literary works”; maps and architectural plans may be registered as “pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works.”​

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf

So yes software is covered and is considerd a literary work no different then a book.

 

[dinelendarkstar]

... just as you are allowed to use the idea of a character defined by his STR, CON, DEX, INT, WIS, and CHA scores without compensating them.

This is because game mechanics CAN NOT be protected by copyright. Pateneted maybe, but copyright no.

 

[mxyzplk]

Ema was charging, not "charging" for services. He was asking for pay to keep power cards and sheets online with closed content, allowing for visibility to protected full text descriptions of 4e content.

If I recall, he was running ads (at least he was when I last visited) and had even had a Paypal donation option at one time to cover hosting costs.

I am pretty sure that WOTC would NOT have shut him down for that. He decided to make a business out of protected content. This is not cool in the...

Sure, and fair enough. But we're all having to guess and be "pretty sure" about what WotC would shut someone down for. I'll remind us all that Rouse's last post said "pretty much we only care about full scale torrent pirates." However you view Ema's site, it wasn't that. So they are clearly expanding their scope of inspection.

White Wolf put out a quite restrictive fan site policy that said you can't even have ads on a WW fan site. Well, does WotC care about that too? Because then a bunch more sites would come under the potential gun. This isn't some strange hypothetical, one of the other largest RPG companies took this stance.

What's OK and what's wrong? Charging for use? Paypal donations for hosting? Ads? Ads done by your host because you're using a free site? Optional charging for a "better" account? Selling your own products on the site? Selling other products through the site? There are other companies that have said they have a beef with all of these. I think we all here would be "shocked" if WotC went to close down everyone with ads on their site, but they're certainly entitled to and other RPG companies have. So how do we know what's OK in this case? The real answer is by WotC actually publishing fansite rules instead of the current vagueness of "well, as long as we like you, you're OK." But they say it's a low priority for them.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

If you want to stay safe, don´t reproduce Wotc IP on your site. Its that simple. Once you do it, you´ve reached "could move against you, maybe, maybe not" territory. Once you charge anything for anything, you´ve went still farther into that direction. Thats how it is.
I´m pretty sure even with a fansite policy, much will still come down to goodwill and "wish us luck." Personally, i know several sites that are surfing very close to the reef already, so to speak. And yes, for sites like that its pretty much "any day now, something will happen."

 

[tomBitonti]

I have to ask: Do we know specifically what WotC found infringing?

Also: Do we know if the site had:

1) Use of trademarks?
2) Use of other graphical items?
3) More than minimal use of text from WotC?
4) Use of feat and/or power names?
5) Use of game mechanic terms?
6) A set of character sheets?
7) A power card printer?

My understanding (and really, my understanding) is that 1-3 are infringing while 4-7 are not (with the separation of 1-3 as distinct items).

The discussion has been interesting, but I'm reaching the limit of what I can draw out from a discussion about Ema's website (as opposed to a general copyright/fair/use discussion).

This would seem to be a good case for WotC to explain what went wrong, and generally what the fan site policy is. Since I haven't heard this policy, I don't think one will be forthcoming, other than "you can do what is fair to do", that is, that the policy is to follow Copyright and Trademark law. Also, taken in that light, a statement from WotC would be their interpretation of what is fair, and I don't see them giving up that information. (I imagine they want there to be a fuzzy line, even though that chills fan content.)

Someone mentioned in a prior post that there is a "usual" process for infringement cases, and the sending of Cease and Desist letters. What is that actual process? Is a remedy which is to remove just infringing material generally sufficient? Is it usual for a threat of a lawsuit to be made to cause the infringer to remove all material? (As in, "Look, you infringed us. We could sue you, but we won't, if you not only take down the infringing items, but also take down these additional items...")

 

[Xath]

That's like saying "I don't see anything wrong with slavery, I'm the favored house slave! No beatings for me!" It only lasts as long as you're in good with the master, and sure doesn't help the other individuals.

This comparisson is completely inappropriate. I encourage you to reread the rules with the time you gain from no longer posting in this thread.

 

[JohnRTroy]

But is the solution really "be a site that Wizards likes?" Sure, ENWorld may pull that off, but is that the answer to the thousand other fansites? "You can exist as long as they like you?"

That's like saying "I don't see anything wrong with slavery, I'm the favored house slave! No beatings for me!" It only lasts as long as you're in good with the master, and sure doesn't help the other individuals.

A fan site still exists at the pleasure of the parent company.

Mxyzplk, based on your blog, you tend to see the world in a very black and white simplistic view of large company and/or defending IP as "evil", and little guys, open source, OGL, freedom to do anything with the property as "good". I read what you said about the White Wolf fan policy--clearly anything other than a very laizee-faire, OGL or creative commons standard will displease you. You rally against censorship, but when you use other's creations you need to have a modicum of respect. I really think you need to stop using too much hyperbole, especially the slavery comparison.

I think WoTC can and should do it on a case by case basis. I do think an official fan site policy would be nice and should be released by WoTC, but I also think only the most egregious violations will ever be undertaken. I doubt ENWorld would be seen as a threat--you're taking everything to the extreme.