Ema's RPG Sheet Website down...

[Obryn]

Waitasec... Bear with me a moment, because I've never been to Ema's site that I remember.

So Ema sets up a site which lets you print out copyrighted material, complete text from the books ... and that site wasn't licensed to do so ... and the site charged for full functionality

... and a C&D comes as a surprise somehow?

Gosh, I figured companies love it when people re-sell their stuff.

I know everyone wants to get upset at WotC, but if this is all true, then I'm upset at Ema. Personally, I'd like a workable GSL that more third-party companies can work with. Regardless of my personal opinions on copyright issues, crap like this makes the GSL fight even harder.

There's a thin line between a fan site and a commercial site. When you're directly paying for functionality, and copyrighted non-original material is part of the deal... Well, that crosses the line.

Now, with that said, WotC likely doesn't have a right to say, "Shut the whole thing down!" if Ema also had OGL material up. I hope the non-infringing stuff gets straightened out and back up so that fans of his work can get back to it.

-O

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Agreed. I retract my previous statement on this in regards to wotc. Indeed my baseless suspicions now turn towards Ema closing up shop so quickly. Could not Ema only removed the 4e material? Since there is money involved, are refunds going to be issued for undelivered services?

I don't think thats really possible. What Ema's did beforehand probably skirted copyright issues, but since there wasn't money involved, there was no reason for WotC to lay the smack down. Once money became involved in it(even if it was only to pay for bandwith, since selling subscriptions is a lot different than asking for donations), the die was cast and I don't think there was any way to separate it anymore. I don't think it was an option for WotC to crack down on the paid stuff while leaving the old character sheets alone.

There is also the issue that had WotC allowed Ema's to continue as it was, it would theoretically be encouraging others to do the same.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Waitasec... Bear with me a moment, because I've never been to Ema's site that I remember.

So Ema sets up a site which lets you print out copyrighted material, complete text from the books ... and that site wasn't licensed to do so ... and the site charged for full functionality

... and a C&D comes as a surprise somehow?

Gosh, I figured companies love it when people re-sell their stuff.

I know everyone wants to get upset at WotC, but if this is all true, then I'm upset at Ema. Personally, I'd like a workable GSL that more third-party companies can work with. Regardless of my personal opinions on copyright issues, crap like this makes the GSL fight even harder.

There's a thin line between a fan site and a commercial site. When you're directly paying for functionality, and copyrighted non-original material is part of the deal... Well, that crosses the line.

Now, with that said, WotC likely doesn't have a right to say, "Shut the whole thing down!" if Ema also had OGL material up. I hope the non-infringing stuff gets straightened out and back up so that fans of his work can get back to it.

-O

I blame the open-gaming mindset and a hangover from the bad old days of "They Sue Regularly".

 

[Mark]

Ema's site used copyrighted WotC material that was not released under the OGL for both 3.5E and 4E, and charged money to use features of the site.

(. . .) what he then started doing was a commercial venture. As soon as you do that, you have to play on WotC's turf.

Whether money is charged or not, IP needs to be protected. Part of the reasoning behind the advent of the OGL and the subsequent 3.x fansite policy was an effort to manage an inevitable amount of usage by a growing online community. One of the side effects of abandoning the OGL for the newest edition of D&D was a need to create a new policy for how to deal with online activity that might violate copyright and trademarks. Recently we found out that Scott Rouse was tasked with curtailing filesharing of D&D materials, a task that he said was prioitized higher than making adjustments to the current GSL. Now a site carrying 4E IP material that was a fansite and began charging a fee received a C&D notice, prompting its closing. It remains to be seen if they will take the same stance with a site that might do the same thing but not charge money for it, however, the fact that Ema did not simply cease charging and actually shut down the entire site seems to indicate that was not an option. Perhaps they will reopen with more limited content and still charge, or not charge, or something else. That also remains to be seen. Some have suggested that it was the "software" aspect that brought on the C&D but, honestly, I doubt anyone believes that illegally utilizing someone's IP is okay outside of "software" but a no-no used in conjunction with "software" of some kind. If anyone does believe the above conditional usages, they could go right ahead and open a fansite with all of the same material outside of a "software" application and not charge for it, then see how long before they receive a C&D, though I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Xyxox]

I don't think thats really possible. What Ema's did beforehand probably skirted copyright issues, but since there wasn't money involved, there was no reason for WotC to lay the smack down. Once money became involved in it(even if it was only to pay for bandwith, since selling subscriptions is a lot different than asking for donations), the die was cast and I don't think there was any way to separate it anymore. I don't think it was an option for WotC to crack down on the paid stuff while leaving the old character sheets alone.

There is also the issue that had WotC allowed Ema's to continue as it was, it would theoretically be encouraging others to do the same.

On top of that, if the site included trademarked material, WotC could lose all rights to those trademarks if it chose not to vigorously defend the IP.

As I'm not familiar with Ema's site, I cannot say whther or not trademarked content was there, but if it was then WotC had no choice but to shut Ema down completely.

 

[jephlewis]

I think i've been to ema's a few times in the past. I normally just print out the free, plain jane, black and white 3.5 character sheets that i'm pretty sure I got from the wotc site; they were the exact same thing as the sheet in the PHB.

IF ema was hosting non-OGL stuff AND charging money related to that, then I definitely won't fault wotc for acting on it.

IF ema was only hosting OGL stuff, charging for it or not, then yeah, that's kinda messed up on wotc's part. It doesn't sound like that's the case though.

It sure would be nice if ema, a wotc representative, or both would give us some more info.

 

[xechnao]

I don't think thats really possible. What Ema's did beforehand probably skirted copyright issues, but since there wasn't money involved, there was no reason for WotC to lay the smack down. Once money became involved in it(even if it was only to pay for bandwith, since selling subscriptions is a lot different than asking for donations), the die was cast and I don't think there was any way to separate it anymore. I don't think it was an option for WotC to crack down on the paid stuff while leaving the old character sheets alone.

There is also the issue that had WotC allowed Ema's to continue as it was, it would theoretically be encouraging others to do the same.

I do not know Ema's site but what you are saying does not really square based on what has been said on this thread. Ema could have simply canceled service of 4e copyrighted material and remain on OGL material. Especially if some people could have donated money for this. But I understand there could be technical complications.

 

[Obryn]

I do not know Ema's site but what you are saying does not really square based on what has been said on this thread. Ema could have simply canceled service of 4e copyrighted material and remain on OGL material. Especially since it seems some people could have payed money for this.

Neither of us have seen the C&D.

If WotC demanded the whole site - infringing AND non-infringing - be taken down, then bad on them.

If they only asked for the removal of the 4e material and Ema took the whole site down in response... Well, it's either a matter of confusion or something else entirely.

Basically, I don't know that we have enough information on this without more information. Rushing to judgment may be the internet's favorite pasttime, but why not give it some time?

-O

 

[Obryn]

It sure would be nice if ema, a wotc representative, or both would give us some more info.

I doubt WotC will say anything specific, for legal reasons.

Ema, though, would be perfectly free to scan and post the C&D letter.

-O

 

[xechnao]

Neither of us have seen the C&D.

If WotC demanded the whole site - infringing AND non-infringing - be taken down, then bad on them.

If they only asked for the removal of the 4e material and Ema took the whole site down in response... Well, it's either a matter of confusion or something else entirely.

Basically, I don't know that we have enough information on this without more information. Rushing to judgment may be the internet's favorite pasttime, but why not give it some time?

-O

Agreed.