Enchanted Castles!

[ùìéè äîáåê]

Military Needs

In many ways, I see the situation as similar to modern warfare. With overwhelmingly strong weapons, on both sides, defense is very difficult. This leads to several results, chiefly that

1) defense is mostly MOBILE. You find no castles in modern warfare, and very few (extremly well-fortified and therefore expensive) permament bases within the war-zone.
2) Communication, military intelligence and mobility of your forces are of paramount importance.

It seems to me that, much like the modern army, the army in a magic-rich world (as 3E is) would invest more in spells such as Scry, Fly, Messege and similar spells/magic items.

While the attack spells are more flamboyant, magic is actually SO effective that assuming you have enough of it (and a wand of fire missiles is definitely enough here!) the problem would become where to aim it - and how to keep the enemy from aiming it at your weaknesses. Military intelligence is the key.

As for the castles themselves, in a standard D&D campaign I believe all that investment that is really needed to maintain a castle that would not fall to a bunch of, say, 2nd level sorcerers is just not worth it. A lesser investment would allow you to build a military force that would be their match on the field, as a mobile force, instead of pinned down in a known location just waiting to be attacked.
I am not saying that castles should be thrown out. Castles are an important part of the Fantasy landscape. I just don't think they are applicable without seriously meddling with either their construction (requiring, as noted befoe, a LOT of effort) or changing the rules somehow.
Personally, I prefer changing the rules. I have not yet decided precisely how, but I intend to make constructing un-scryable and un-passable construction feasible, at a "reasonable" expense in my campaign. The inner core of castles (the Keep, rather then the whole shabang) should be built as such. High-level casters would be able to breach it (as it would normally be made by low-level spellcasters), but they are, indeed, very very rare.

Another point I would like to comment on are the levels. How you build your world's population is up to you, but by the DMG rules a Small city would have something like 2 8th-level wizards, 4 4th-level, 8 2nd-level and 16 1st-level wizards. So relatively high level wizards (certainly above 2) should be part of any serious campaign, assuming wizards are "part of the land". I can't imagine ALL those 8th level wizards not participating in a campaign to fight off an Orcish invasion. Afterall, this is their homes, where their families are, where their friends are...
The DMG guidelines aside (I really don't think they are any good), have you considered what participating in such a campaign would do to those 1st-level wizards? The military service (assuming a war) would be one long adventure. Even if you will only grant them XP on what they kill themselves, they should either die or be advanced in levels during the campaign. I don't think any would remain 1st level after it. I estimate level 3, perhaps even 4, to be the average "surviving" level of a long war, if you are honest enough to allow the NPCs to receive XP for Story Awards, for outwitting the enemy, for leading their forces and so on - as I, and I believe most, DMs do.

This has been long, and as I reread I find I put things sometimes too blantly. I don't mean to say anything you said was wrong, or that I know better. Infact I found your discussion very interesting and ilumminating - or I wouldn't have written a reply. I just thought I'll put in my own thoughts on the mattter, as a former and reserves soldier (not that I am a good proffesional soldier by any means, I don't mean to imply knowledge - just a point of view).

 

[Sulimo]

I've always wondered about this. Why TSR never touch on this area, epecially given the prevelence of magic in D&D worlds.

I know ICE did with their Rolemaster game, with a whole section magic and constructions (castles, towers and the like) . Both discussions about how standard magics could be used in this way as well as specific magics for constructions.

 

[SHARK]

Dragonblade, Give Me A Call Friend!

Greetings!

Yes, quite right. TSR didn't pick up on the implications very well. Having played Rolemaster for ten years, they produced a Castle Book that had extensive lists of spells for attacking and fortifying castles and fortifications. In addition, there was some serious discussion provided for *HOW* to go about thinking of the implications of magic throughout the campaign. D&D doesn't--and hasn't--ever really gotten into it. I don't know why, really.

Now, unless one is purposely running a gritty, *Low Fantasy* campaign, and keeping a tight reign on it at that, as Castellan and myself mentioned, there's going to be some serious effects even from relatively low-level magic.

However, if one reads the manuals carefully, it becomes apparent that the *default* environment is substantially higher than what one might consider to be *Low Fantasy* With this in mind, the implications become fantastic. Even if there are only a few wizards around. For example,

As a player, my friends and I have always been very intelligent, resourceful, and opportunistic. We have also worked as a team, with high esprit de corps. Now, even as a DM, I assume various NPC's may behave this way as well. The players aren't the only people to come up with ideas, have teamwork, loyalty, and so on. And furthermore, yeah, while there is plenty of real-world history of blood, death, and betrayal--there is also plenty of inspiration for what a few--or even a large group of people, united, loyal, and committed to each other can accomplish. Literally, kingdoms can rise and fall on such.

With these thoughts as a sort of introduction, consider this:

Forget comfortable stereotypes and *normalities* If your group has two or three wizards, let's suppose they recruit six-twelve wizard cohorts or apprentices. Suppose they pour their life out in great zeal and loyalty to make a glorious dream come true--that of a majestic, well supplied, enchanted Mages Guild, where dozens of wizards are turned out every month! Not that such training only takes a *month*--but that the classes are callibrated so as to be graduating at approximately regular intervals. This Guild, or Wizards Order, would have extensive research facilities and resources, as well as a passionate loyalty to each other, and the king.

Though I'm recalling some thought from a thread from long ago, imagine such a powerful, wealthy kingdom, say with the wealth of ancient Rome or glorious Egypt. Imagine then, what such a wealthy and well organized Wizards Order might be able to accomplish. Now remember, this can be in a human kingdom as well. No need for the longer-lived races to have all the glory! Humans can learn, and strive to pass on the secrets of their father's father, and their father's father before that, to the next generation. There would be a great deal of honour and pride in carrying on the traditions of say, a 500 year old, or 1000 year old Wizard's Order. Now, in chewing on this, don't always *assume* the worst. On occasion, unity and loyalty would be maintained. Allow for something plausible,--reasonable, actually,--but different, to develop. This ancient Wizard's Order would build upon the lessons and the knowledge learned from generation to generation--year after year. Imagine a great project--say the wizards in one generation decided to build a network of enchanted communication towers throughout the realm. One generation after another could carry on the project to see it to its completion. Or another project--let's say a network of enchanted castles spread throughout the most important areas of the empire. The wizards would faithfully carry on, even adding in improvements from new generations, as well as making up-grades to fortresses already established. Point being, even in human realms, providing a fairly stable system of government, a Wizard's Order could, over time, help build a magnificent kingdom that would be a marvel of the region. Let your imagination run wild! It could be done.

True, not every realm would be as such. But there would be more than one, and there could reasonably be expected to be several. In different regions perhaps, but none the less, other strong, unified kingdoms in neighboring areas would quickly catch on, so there would be plenty of room for variety, and different *normal* kingdoms, and the occasional *highly magical* kingdom. The residual effects of compounded magical abilities, combined with stable government, and steady wealth, would produce a distinctly different world than the seemingly typical one we find, and often are jaded and bored with.

Think about how magic would effect food supplies, water supplies, sanitation, animals, warfare, communications, travel, and so on. Each one, over time, at least in some kingdoms, could see advances and fantastic developments made. Several different magical kingdoms might even have different traditions, or specialties, whether due to resources, or talents. Then, if not outright enemies, or friends, they may at least have a fairly well-developed tradition of magical duels, tournaments, or other, perhaps even academic and magical competitions. These could add flavor and distinction to your campaign.

Give some thought to how these changes would effect the social fabric of society, as well as the economic model, and people's thoughts about life, death, entertainment, and work. Even the common peasant's life and attitudes might be very different if he has a horse that regenerates common wounds; Crops that yield 25% more yield; Water or fruits that strengthen resistance to diseases; A tempature-controlled house; Perhaps the peasants might have access to special ale or apple cider that increases their strength and speed, temporarily, so that they accomplish more, in less time.

These peasants now would have more time on their hands. The peasants could use that time to make more money/create more resources, and or use some of that time in the pursuit of more leisure activities. This growing, widespread condition would create new markets and business opportunities, as well as new *taxation* opportunities for the crown, as well as changing the social dynamics of society. More of a night-life might be created, which in turn could influence other developments coming into being.

I'm sorry if I have gotten perhaps *too technical* in my discussion. I know it's a *game*--and not some "adventures in social and economic development"--but I hope you see what I'm saying. I think there are some very real opportunities that exist within the framework of the game, that can be used for more fun, and more interesting games for everyone.

What do you think?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[SHARK]

*BUMP*

 

[Deadguy]

Wow!!

That's all I can say, SHARK, you've clearly really thought about this! In fact there's so much that I am atill digesting it. I know we've had other discussions on this board and its predecessor about the effects of magic on warand on the economy, but I don't think anyone has put together quite so much stuff in one place.

One small thing I would like to add is that the widespread presence of magic would allow for far more exotic construction than is typically possible with mediaeval era construction techniques. Not that they weren't impressive in themselves (visit any large mediaeval cathedral like Ely or York Minster to get some idea of what could really be done). But if you've got elementals and walls of stone and the like (let's not forget there's every possibility of specialist construction spells being developed if there's a market), then you can create buildings that defy normal techniques. I try and picture what can be done with pre-stressed concrete, so that slener, sweeping structures are possible. If magic can further reinforce these then they can become truly bizarre. Imagine

• towers that reach nundreds of feet into the sky
• single span bridges crossing mile-wide rivers
• gardens built atop great pyramids
• aqueducts of transparent stone carrying rivers above the tops of cities
• bastions of irreducible stone able to reflect spells back at their casters

As an example, consider the D&D movie. For all its many faults, it did quite a good job of showing a place built with the aid of magical construction. I still keep in y minds eye the sweeping columns of Antius City, and the giant mage towers of the capital. Silly, some people will say! And it won't fit all campaigns, but it is worth trying to include at least some structures that are fantastical. Unless you're doing a 'realistic' mediaeval game. then there ought to be some footprint of the supernatural powers available.

 

[SHARK]

Just Brilliant Deadguy!

Greetings!

Indeed, Deadguy, you've put some thought into this as well! I like those ideas of yours! I think as one goes through the various branches of life, carefully considering how magic might effect them, it begins to dawn on one how fantastic the implications can be.

It seems like many D&D campaigns are done in a sort of vacuum, you know? Like the only *changes* that effect the campaign world are what is accomplished in the present campaign.

For example, perhaps I'm unusual, but I have some players that have been playing with me off and on for ten years or more. I have one player that has a family dynasty built up. Her first character, an elven wizard, married an NPC wizard, who is also a powerful nobleman in the Vallorean Empire. He is a half-elf. They had kids. Lots of them. They also built an enchanted castle that flies, and is made out of beautiful crystal of different color. Pale white marble is used as well. Both of them have a dozen or more apprentices. Both have many powerful friends, and incredible wealth. They have passed on magic, wealth, and training not only to their children, but their apprentices as well.

One of the character's children, a female elf, (three-quarters elf, actually)--has become a powerful wizard, following in her parent's footsteps. A second long campaign has developed, where she is now a very powerful wizard, and she has become a member of an elite wizard's order, the Order of the Silver Dragon, which is fully funded and supported by the Vallorean Emperor. Her character has a dozen or so talented apprentices. She recently married the Crown Prince of the Vallorean Empire. Time has passed on some, and they have children now as well. The Crown Prince is three quarters human, and one quarter elf. That means that the children are essentially half elves. This will also benefit them with extended life-spans.

Now, imagine what the next daughter, a upcoming wizard, will be able to accomplish. The new wizard, lets say when she becomes 15th level, well, she can reasonably expect assistance from

(1) Her mother, who is a very powerful wizard, and the next Queen of Vallorea.

(2) Her mother's powerful apprentices and friends, several of whom are very powerful, and the rest are formidable as well.

(3) Her grandmother, who is a powerful wizard, and incredibly wealthy as well.

(4) Her grandfather, who is a powerful wizard, and incredibly wealthy as well.

(5) Her grandparent's apprentices, and friends alike.

(6) She can call upon any powerful wizard-friends that are part of her group, or circle of friends.

Now, think what someone like this could accomplish. There are probably similar characters in your own campaigns. Players, and even NPC's. Something I also tend to think about, is well, take this one player example I have mentioned. There certainly isn't just her, her family, and friends involved with something like this. In distant kingdoms throughout the campaign, there are other wizards, other families, and groups of friends helping each other, serving to make big dreams come into reality. There are merchant guilds and kingdoms alike, as well as wealthy religious denominations, that are more than eager to bankroll the development and research of a group of wizards, if they themselves don't have all the money and resources necessary.

And so, it can be seen that there will be all kinds of interesting things going on. It just stretches believability when you have *wizards* in the campaign, and yet, though it can be plainly seen what *groups* of them could accomplish, and then imagine what several generations of them could accomplish,--we won't go there, because somewhere, there is this idea that prevails that wizards must be loners, arrogant, selfish, and incredibly short sighted. Thus, we have them locking themselves up in some isolated tower out in the middle of nowhere. They have these incredible spell lists, and the ability to create incredible magic items, --but somehow, as the campaigns roll by, the spells never change, the social dynamics never change, the application of magic never changes. From one campaign to the next, the whole campaign environment seems *stagnant* A slightly magical 14th century European town-environment.

Think about how you have run consecutive campaigns, with some of the same players perhaps. Why is the campaign environment arrested? It seems that with all of the spells, and potential for magic, and its effects, the prevailing model of the selfish, paranoid, isolated wizard just wouldn't last.

Imagine what that isolated wizard could *discover* compared to the thirty or fifty wizards in the Royal Guild, backed by the wealth of the Crown? That isolated wizard is going to be behind the curve, really. The guild would have several dozen of the most brilliant minds, all skilled in wizardry, working on great discoveries and projects that the lone wizard couldn't even touch.

These are some of the considerations that I don't see talked much about, or thought about seriously to a large degree.

What do you think?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[DMaple]

If you build a fortress based on magic, then one successful "dispel magic" or "antimagic shell" and the whole thing could come down like a pack of cards.

I think "ùìéè äîáåê" made a good point about the need to be mobile. Magic could be used to provide near instant physical defenses, so there is no need to sit in one place waiting for them to find a flaw in your static defenses.

Sure magic can assist in building defenses and improve on a lot of them but you can't depend on magic to work. Even a low level wizard if he is luckly can defeat a high level spell that is in effect.

[edit]

For example.

One of the younger childern of this Vallorian dynasty of half-elven wizards is jealous of the attention her elder siblings recieve. She recognises she will never come to sit on the throne, never have the real power that one of her intelligence and magical gifts deserves.

She quietly recruits other people (among them several apprentices) who are unhappy with the current rulers and royal dynasty. With her knowledge of magic and the defenses of the castle, it becomes a simple matter for her loyal apprentices to bring the flying castle crashing to the ground killing most of her enemies in one fell swoop. This much shortens the inevitable civil war and leads to her being pronounced Queen.

The populance curse the arrogance of former rulers that use to fly above them. Wouldn't it have been safer to have the castle on the ground? Then none of this would have happened.

 

[GreyOne]

Greetings o Lord of Battle,

In the Malazan Book of the Fallen series by Steven Erikson, many fortifications use a reddish mineral called otataral which becomes part of the walls. It completely negates and absorbs magic - the more powerful the sorcery, the quicker the magic is negated.

 

[Ace]

Greetings!

F

How has integrating magic into the campaign changed the way you design, and build castles? Have you let your players get really wild with designing and developing their castles? What kinds of effects has magic had in your castle design?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

HMM> IMC there really aren't castles per se.

The castle as medievil base, strong point etc never occured in the high magic enviroment of my game world.

There are several reasons for this

First mages are quite prevalent. there is approximately one mage capable of third level or greater spells per 25 fighting men.

So you know my assumptions are a little different than the DMG's in places.
For example the a warrior just out of boot camp is level one.

Level two warrior are like people who finished a term of service and regulars are level three generally.

A squad of regular itroops might be 3 messes of eight men (7/ 2-3rd level 1 3-5th) and a mage from 5-7th level

For every twelve of these units there is a support vehicle of some kind.

A largish battle (say 6000 or so men on a side) might field 240 mages and two dozen vehicles.
This means a static responce would allow most of a nations cropland and city areas to be ruined in a few days. In DND offense is much stronger than defense. While there are defensive spells the dynamics of magic has limited the scale of defensive magic

Also clerics, paladins and druids generally do not fight in political battles except as medics (sometimes)

A battle field in my game is a slice of hell, more so even then a real medievel battlefield

2400 (20 foot radius) blasts in a minute will make hash out of any formations.


Second: Per every dozen units or so there is usually a magic vehicle, a Strider (DND mech) or an Aerif (flying vehicle). Few castles can pack enough defense to withstand massive ariel bombardment or featherfall commando swarms or the host of other tactics out there.

IMC war becomes more than three dimensional, Flight and Invisblity are common as are illusion and fire balls and summoned monsters.
Spells like Earthquake and Dig are often used.
Granted there aren't huge numbers of folks who can cast these spells but valuable magic items are out there. Magic is not disposable.
Once made most items are around till destroyed. Therefore the amount of items increases each year. I estimate a mage wil make an item very few years.
A few items times centurys equals a lot of magic out there.

Since the tactical uses for castles are limited I have other big buildings. In particular

Delves: Structures built into mountains or partially undergeround like a bunker with attached tunnel complex.

Strong points: Pillboxes used to shelter troops

Fortresses: Used mainly where there are few magic threats expected (the three best known are near gates to low magic worlds). There are a few small fortresses called Redoubts
used to slow down attacks on vital points (like a river bend) and a few inhabited fortresses called Keeps

Basically IMC warfare looks a lot like World War 1 without the trenches rather than the middle ages.


All in all, other than the occasional eccentric wizard or ancient relic there aren't castles.

 

[LostSoul]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I've come up with a few points:

- armies, full of low-level warriors and fighters, wouldn't exist. It is too easy for a few high-level fighters and area-effect spells to wipe them out in one, quick stroke. What is a army of 1,000 1st to 3rd level Warriors going to do against a Hasted, Improved Invisible, Flying Wizard who casts Fireballs into thier midst?
Instead, you would have small groups of highly-trained professionals fighting a war of assassins.
- castles would not exist. The large castle that juts out from the ground is an easy target for damage spells - and if it is enchanted, Dispel Magic.
- dungeons would become the preferred fortress. Sprawling compexes built with the help of magic (or magical creatures) would be much easier to defend than a standard castle. In these dungeons, there would be areas where intensive training would be conducted. Turning those with above-average potential (that is, high attributes) into hardened warriors, devout priests, scholared wizards, or sly rogues.
With the help of magic, it is possible that the dungeon complex could feed itself, becoming totally self-sufficient.
- commoners would be totally valueless. Menial tasks could be done by constructs specially created for the job at hand. Most craftsmen would also be wizards, using magic to assist thier craft.
Commoners would live a hellish existence above ground. The best of thier number would be taken to the dungeons to be trained in some art, be it magical or martial.

This type of campaign world seems very intersting. I just wish that somebody would take it and run with it.