Enchanted Castles!

[SHARK]

Hmmm...

Greetings!

Well, DMmaple, I certainly agree that there would probably be a sort of *magical armsrace* between various kingdoms. Indeed, I think there would be orders of wizards established by various kingdoms to be constantly working on offensive and defensive magics.

Having said that, though, I'm not so sure that the reality of that particular dynamic would simply result in everyone being annihilated, and thus the default would be a minimal-magic, 14th century European model.

I think while some areas may see intense magical combat, other areas, other kingdoms, may in fact be living quite peacefully and stable. True, there are spies and so on, but a order of wizards could conceivable research some new spells, and create some powerful new magic items, and it may be quite some time before any *magical rivals* would necessarily be aware of it.

Then again, perhaps I'm presupposing some campaign suppositions of my own. In my campaign, there are enormous continents--vast land masses--where there are huge tracts of wilderness between many civilized kingdoms, in some areas. Thus, *specific* knowledge doesn't necessarily spread to *everywhere*

Then, there is the whole possibility of sophisticated magical intelligence and espionage organizations serving the king to defend the kingdom from spies and so on. There are thus many different possibilities.

One that leaps out at me is what if one particular kingdom gains temporal supremacy over the local area, and then proceeds to forge a broad magical superiority over the surrounding nations, kingdoms, and peoples. The surrounding realms may not really be in a position to "get into a magical arms-race."

As someone else mentioned however, for realms that are equivalent, there are always measures and counter-measures. Still, the campaign environment would be very different if the magical environment that is presented in the DMG were really taken to its logical conclusions. As it remains, however, we often see campaigns that are at distinct magical dissonance, logically, with what is presented in the DMG.

It's all quite facinating!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[DMaple]

The point I'm trying to make is.....

Say two large armies meet in at the field of battle.

One has come up with the cunning idea of enlisting the aid of a school of wizards. The other commander is expecting a traditional war since magic has not really been used in such a scale on the battlefield.

The battle begins, but is quickly brought to an end by the wizards fireballing the enemy into oblivion. The victor gains the field and his invasion goes well at first, but unfortunately he has killed all the peasants (as a fireball give little chance to survive or run away, or recover from a minor wound) that would work the fields he has claimed and the land goes to waste.

The next nation he approachs has perpared for him in kind and they two slaughter huge numbers of the enemy, soon both armies are in ruins. There aren't enough people left to work the land and famine sets in across the continent.

People are a resource that you can't afford to kill, and conventional war generally doesn't lead to massive numbers of dead. Wounded that recover, troops that flee the field of battle and so forth but generally the people are left alive to be ruled over.

A full scale magical battle would be so devastating as to be a disadvantage to the winner as he would be left with nothing to rule over. You would be fighting a war that no-one would win.

Fantasy novels and campaigns are full cataclysmic (sp?) results of previous mage wars and generally they are seen as such a bad thing that no one would let them happen again.

I can see how both sides would avoid the use of wizards on the field of battle even though they might keep them in reserve in case the enemy was stupid enough to deploy them. They would generally be used for spying and building normal defenses "Dig", etc.

 

[Rackhir]

I've not read them mind you, but it does sound relavant to the discussion. Harry Turtledove does have a series of books based around WWI breaking out in a world that uses magic rather than technology. That might make for an interesting example of the "worst" case scenario for magic in warfare.

 

[Broken Fang]

Man I most be slow...I just now found this place. Thought after Eric closed the boards that was going to be it. Sheesh, wonder about all the good stuff I missed out on!

I have lots to go and read but I remember this from way back when SHARK posted it the first time.

I have two quick thoughts for now:

1. The MYTH series where Skeeve is hired to take on teh advancing army...all by himself! The general doesn't like him because if he wins the army will be disbanded. Could this take place in D&D. General so and so tells leader of nation that magic can't hold ground, etc and the army is still needed.

2. On the same thread as above...if you were a fighter and you saw your first fireball. Maybe people would starrt hunting down mages with these awesome powers (ie. killing lots of people with one spell.)

Again both would be things that really have to be dealt with at the campaigns start...not very useful in the realms. But it could be a reason why castles and armies were still widely used.

Man it's good to be back.

 

[FoxWander]

Interesting thread. I see alot of good points but one thing keeps bugging me. Dispel Magic vs. an enchanted CASTLE! Castle's are BIG and one little dispel magic isn't going to bring it all crashing down. Unless you can include the ENTIRE fortress in the AoE it shouldn't do squat! Same thing with an Anti-Magic Field. Sure the AMF will temporarily deactivate a small section of wall, but it certainly won't shut down the whole castle.

At any rate a truly Enchanted Castle will still be a rarity in most campaign worlds. Limited probably to major Capitol defense and the occasional eccentric with money to burn. I see magic having the greatest impact on the logistics of seige warfare. Big castles that house a chapel (as many did in medieval times) means easy access to clerics meaning hundreds of scrolls of Create Food & Water and Create Water. No more surrounding the castle and waiting till they starve. And any Lord worthy of the position would cultivate good relations with a powerful mage and his entourage of apprentices. With Scribe scroll and then Craft Wand at 3rd level you'd have an incradible reserve arsenal. I imagine every squad of soldiers would have at least one fellow trained to at least 1st level wizard or to a high skill in Use Magic Device to use the squad Wands of Magic Missile, True Strike, Bull's Strength, Bless and Cure Light Wounds! All of these, and many more, are easily created by 1-3rd level wizards and clerics. And with the incredible ability of True Strike to overcome range penalties, ballista snipers would be a serious problem. You better make sure your key combantants stay out of sight or at least never go without their Prot. from Normal Missiles and a Shield spell.

And this doesn't even touch on how you'd have to BUILD a castle in such a world. Even without mage-heavy battlefields there are still evil dragons, bullettes and purple worms. So you have to defend against attacks from above AND below. Towers and walls would have to have roofs to protect against air attacks. And domed castles would be better than large open courtyards. Maybe some clever architect might engineer some sort of retractible roof so you could have both. In the old Dragon magaizine someone mentioned they presented defense from below as the reason why castles have extensive dungeon tunnels filled with horrible monsters. Would you want to be the sapper who was supposed to dig under the castle reputed to have dungeons filled with ghouls and trolls under it. In the article they said that undead, especially ghouls, would be the perfect weapon for such a defense. One thing I particularly liked was their idea that condemned criminals wouldn't be merely executed, they would be sent down a one-way slide to "join the guard!"

Now that your castle is 'impregnable' you have to defend against those who figure its easier to infiltrate it than to storm it. So in addition to clerics and mages, get friendly with the local druid a well. A vine-covered keep is probably the easiest defense against astral and ethereal visitors, but you need the druid to keep them from becoming waht the enemies druid uses to beat you. Also I'd keep visitors on a short leash. You don't want people to have a good description of the interior of your castle to guard against teleport. Either conduct court in another, unimportant building or be ready to fill those areas that are open to the public with something to keep mages from blipping in. And permanent Anti-Scrying spells would be a must. Also at the first sign of invasion, lock up all the servants. They know the place inside and out, so either zap them with Forget spells or find some place to keep them for the duration. If you're evil, the 'Guard' just got a little stronger.

Anyway, I could go on and on. I love thinking up crap like this!

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Welcome back Broken Fang!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Greetings Shark. I just decided to reregister because my old account (Basilisk) got screwed up in the transition to these boards. This is a very interesting thread.

A few comments: In any campaign, the specialties of wizards will play a large part in the effect of magic on a campaign. If most wizards are Enchanters with Evocation as their opposed school, things will look very different than if they're Evokers with Alteration or Conjuration as their opposed school. The Royal Wizard's academy that Shark proposed would be quite likely to turn out large numbers of wizards with the same specialties and opposed schools so that would exaggerate this effect.

Now a lot of people have made comments about the design of fortifications in a fantasy world and the usefulness of long term emplacements like castles. However, people seem to have neglected some other militarily significant uses of magic. At mid levels, Wall of Stone (instantaneous so dispel magic won't hurt it) would allow instant field fortifications of a kind and quality unknown even today. Want a wall with machiolations and arrow slits all the way across the mountain pass? Only have five minutes before the Persian army arrives? No problem. If you have slightly more time, Move Earth can be used to create massive series of ditches and ramparts. Using these spells, an army could potentially throw up fortresses at a moment's notice. Consequently, while magic may make it too much expense and effort to build a castle the 14th century way, it would create its own kinds of castles and buildings.

At the moment D&D has Hallow (affix a dispel magic or dimensional anchor or if you're really nasty just affix an inflict serious wounds keyed to the enemy's most common alignment) and Forbiddance which provide permanent (or at least long-term) defenses against many kinds of magic. I would expect cheaper versions of these spells to be developed to make fortifications teleport proof and to deal with invisible opponents.

Offensively, I would expect spells to be used more subtly to enable a professional army of low to midlevel (2nd to 4th level) fighters (and warriors) to take on the kinds of things an enemy could throw at them. Even if a legion of 1600 men had only one 9th level wizard, a few days of crafting wands could put wands of greater magic weapon into the quartermaster's chest. When the divinations indicated that battle was about to ensue, archers could be issued temporarily enhanced +2 arrows (maybe only four or five each) to deal with unnatural creatures or wizards (the enhancement would bypass most protection from arrows spells. Fabricate would allow a wizard to build siege engines for a large army in a very short time. It's certainly possible that a few low level wizards with wands of fireball or high level wizards with the fireball spell could wreak havoc on formations, but that wizard probably wouldn't last very long if he's up against an army of archers with a little magical support. Use of the various ____ image spells to create illusionary terrain features, illusionary units (hopefully to absorb some of those fireballs) would also be an expected feature. Since the flying, improved invisible wizard tossing around fireballs would probably be the biggest low-mid level magical threat, a few elite (level 6+) archers might be attached to each legion and issued magic devices that enabled them to see invisible creatures and magic arrows. A few of these scattered around the battlefield would make it very risky for wizards (with their low hit points) to show their faces so openly on the battlefield. (That would work even better if one or two of them had a level of sorceror or two and a wand of dispel magic).

 

[negativtoo]

hmmmm, some points in this discussion grab my attention

a) A castle/stationary defense has more uses than to defend against major (army/invasion scale ) assaults. Even if it does not keep the Evil Magical Horde at bay for more than few days/hours, it serves rather well as a base for protecting the surrounding country, defending against smaller incursions, raids and providing shelter from beasts, lesser monsters as well as a rallying point for defenders. Not every attacker has access to powerful magic - nor should he. Also fortresses are impressive demonstartions of power (keep cowing the unwashed masses ), are rarely disloyal, and can be defended with less-skilled soldiers instead of a highly mobile, elite, logistically nightmarish magical commandos.

b) Second, assuming that an attacking army employed a variety of fabricated siege engines ( hmm, I do (mistakenly) assume a certain degree of mechanical knowledge on part of the wizard - for whatever reasons he has acquired it ), the same option is available to the defenders. Also, the attacking army has to camp/deploy out in the open , making to a certain degree much more vulnerable . Bad weather usually plays into the hands of the defenders, especially if magical controlled, and will certainly play havoc with the logistics of the attackers. Also, eliminating opposing spellcasters will become a high priority for both sides. As has already been pointed out, powerful spellcasters require lots of time to "replace", barring ressurection and like magics ( and even these carry a heavy price ) - therefore these highly trained, irreplacable casters will be loath to place themselves into harms way- and even then a definite part of their arsenal would be devoted to self preservation, not offensive destruction. Even if their general/king/whatever will risk their death, they temselves might feel different about being "heroically" sacrificed.

c) The Human factor - imagine a king/depot/general who has to rely heavily on powerful individuals (e.g. war wizards) to protect his realm - power these people can wield at a moments notice, killing dozens (maybe the king himself ), charming their way into power and influence, holding the population at their (benevolent ?) mercy. Paranoia anyone ?
IMHO, wizards, sorcerers and other spellusers would try to keep out of the way of such "suspicious" rulers, and even avoid creating them through blatant use of power. The same holds true for common folks - would you trust someone in real life hefting a Machine Gun ( comparison for destructive powers sake ) calmly walking down main street, shopping at the local store ? Or would you be slightly nervous as to the individual's trustworthiness, sensibility and restraint, not to say ethics ? If i was a medieval farmer/merchant/craftsman, i would feel apprehensive.
And why would any sensible wizard actually want to run a country, except to prevent prosecution of himself and his kindred ? Besides it being a heavy workload ( and some paranoid moments regarding his fellow wizards ), what does he get out of it, that he (assuming he is NOT the archetypical megalomanic archmage ) could not get another way ? And if he actually ran the country - how would the population like it ? And would he actually have the skill to do so efficiently ? Influential, but secret cabals of wizard are an option, but not failsafe....

But no doubt, such an kingdom/realm would make a terrific adversary..... But never underestimate the power of the basest human emotons, hatred, envy, insecurity and fear..... even in the good and presumably "just". Oh, and lets not forget greed and lust....

Also, wizards may have other goals (even ethics ) in life than to blast opposing armes and fortresses to smithereens..... Lets not confuse high intellgence and a gift for magic with bloodlust, megalomania or a zest for wargaming.

d) As for established High Magic creations ( even/especially those by players ) - as is most often the case, PCs tend to be on of the "main forces of change" in a campaign, but there usually are ( or should be for an interesting world ) many other powerful groups, who might either covet such creations, or plan to destroy/oppose them as "abominations/ herersies/ unnatural". Repeated (and intricate, planful and/or determined ) assault/takeover attempts on such creations might be repulsed, but the possible defense may become annoying, too demanding or infeasible. PCs, and other NPCs will always face aspiring contenders.

e) High magic campaigns rely heavily on the "power for free" aspect of magic - anyone skilled (high level ) enough, can effectively build armies of powered golems, automatons, elementals hordes etc., which cost littlöe or nothing to maintain, employ or store. Then again, no resource is ever truly for free and/or limitless - probably the "natural order" has some defensive mechanism against magical overload, intense magical concentrations or similar occurences - or some dire events are sheduled to happen if too much magic is cast in too small an area in too short a time..... Even the gods might care or feel insulted about upstart wizards and uncontrolled high magic.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Basilisk, that is just great! I really like the possibilities. I don't think many people have thought about what an instantaneous Wall of Stne can do to a cavalry charge, heh?

The degree to which wizardry can effect the medieval battlefield is incredible. In my campaign, the Order of the Silver Dragon, which is a powerful order of wizards that serve the Vallorean Empire have organized themselves into different "circles." It is common for younger, less experienced wizards to gain such by serving several campaigns or years with the Vallorean Legions, fighting in the ranks as wizard-engineers. Battalion commanders usually have out of a compliment of some 250-300 troops, some dozen or so 1st-6th level wizards. They support the troops in the field with magical firepower, of course, but also with dozens of other tasks that make operations so much easier. Logistics and construction, fortification and resource development are all vital tasks that a conquering army needs to be good at. Wizards, even at low levels, can do so much!

For example; It is fairly common for the Battalion Commander to have in service a squad of highly trained horsemen; Each has an enchanted horse; which in turn, is equipped with an enchanted saddle that improves Ride skills, and mounte combat; as well as Horseshoes of Speed; These riders also have special Saddlebags of Holding, which hold more equipment and rations; as well as small Barrels of Refreshing Drink, which produce prodigious quantities of either hot or cold water, and coffee or mint tea, as desired. These messengers also carry enchanted scrolls that contain important messages or other communications, for others to read. These scrolls have magic seals on them, and must be read a certain way, for example. This is just one way that wizards effect the daily operations of an army on the march.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[jasper]

KISS it

Keep it simple stupid.
first lets us keep to core rules for spells and magic items. I know y'all are creative enough to be able to do lots with just those books.

Second read some of lawerence watt evans books. Single spell did bring down a flying castle.
Build normal castles then improve them with magic.
Why build a 500 ft high by 3 wide tower. The right spells/attacks causes tower go boom!

Assassians. Rare than wizards. But can take out wizards.

Space race um spell race. On the magic items, where are all these spellcasters getting the extra xp?

Wall of x are either duration spells or can be dispell so traps which are activated by Dispell Magic are good only so far.

Research your castle. One castle in Germany was never taken by force. The only gate was basically an elevator to the entrance. They bribed the gate guard.

Please stay in you castle. I going to run all the peasants um commoners to you gates. Takes care of alot of stockpile of rations spells.

As project let take a castle. Say the castle Disney based his castle on. Numberg(?) sorry don't have the guide book handy. I let some who has a scanner put in the floor plans.

Terrian. On top of small mt. To get there face north and look at the castle. Now turn south.
Start walking up the path. The path turns into a 40 degree slope. The terrian is hilly and heavy forested. (Not good but the castle was build with out magic and relies on the terrian.
You get to the top of mountian/hill. You are now on the left side of castle. One doorway is on this wall.
Keep going. Make a u turn and you at the gate.
Note the ground in front of gate was only maybe 30 yards long. Then long drop.

Ok the terrian is difficult to walk say 1/2 to 1/4 movement before spells kick in.
The castle can be attack from the air or underneath. But moving a small army up is going to be hard. Clear cut the trees as you go and use them for seige weapons.

If you don't want this castle choose one and post it and in a seperate post give us your defense.