Encounter-based Design: The only smart elephant in the room

Because those things subvert encounters. Subverting encounters is what makes things Overpowered if encounters are your metric for balance.

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So these abilities -- these things that can turn encounters into non-encounters -- must be severely controlled, curbed, and tamed, so that they cannot render an encounter moot anymore. Because if you're playing an encounter-based game and you can render most of the encounters moot, you're suddenly playing a character who effectively removed most of the challenge from the game.
This seems to presuppose a certain sort of gamist play. (I mean gamist in the Forge sense - "step on up".) Namely, it seems to presuppose play in which the goal of the players is to overcome the challenges - taking the form of encounters - that are posed to them by the GM.

I personally don't think that 4e is all that well suited to this sort of play. (Between its scaling mechanics, it treasure acquisition mechanics, its XP mechanics, its encounter design guidelines, it pretty clearly works on the assumption that the players will overcome the challenges the GM poses for their PCs, and will steadily progress through the levels from the start of heroic to the end of epic.)

And I don't think that AD&D 2nd ed professed to support gamist play (although at least some of its mechanics suggest otherwise) - it talked about "story", not "challenge".

And some AD&D, 3E and even (I believe) 4e players play in a way that focuses to a significant extent on process simulation (via the mechanics) and/or world exploration (with the mechanics as the "physics" of the world).

"Step on up" clearly is the sort of play Gygax talked about in his PHB and presupposed in the DMG. The Gygaxian "skilled player" has stepped on up and shown what s/he is made of.

I think "step on up" is also a widespread approach to 3E play, although 3E also saw the rise of the Adventure Path (with PF being the new vehicle for the same sort of play), and Adventure Paths really only work if the players are pretty much guaranteed to overcome the pre-determined challenges.

I play 4e drifted ever so slightly to a light narrativism (again, in the Forge sense - "Story Now" - the thematic content of my 4e game is very much the stock-standard stuff of heroic fantasy RPGing). [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION] has explained very well on multiple occasions how 4e supports a "light gamism" where the "step on up" element isn't so much in "Will we or won't we win", but rather "Look at the deftness with which I can play my PC" and also "Look how many encounters we handled before we needed to take a rest." (The second you obviously can't do without longer term resources. The first is independent of it.)

And some other posters, including LostSoul, have articulated what I think is a coherent conception of 4e as a high concept simulationist game (again in the Forge sense): the players are in a certain sense just along for the ride, as they get to find out what happens to their PCs on the long but ultimately glorious journey from Heroic to Epic. I suspect that quite a bit of 2nd ed play was like this, and many 2nd ed modules (as well as earlier modules like Dragonlance) seem to presuppose this sort of approach. I likewise suspect that a lot of Adventure Path play in 3E/PF is like this, too. And the Foreword to Moldvay Basic could also be read as promising this sort of play experience, even though (in my view) the mechanics are virtually incapable of delivering it (unless, just as 2nd ed encouraged, the GM fudges "in the interests of the story").

The point of this long catalogue is to illustrate that there is a long tradition in D&D of non-gamist play, as well as varieties of gamism.

In non-gamist play, the fact that PCs have abilities that can "subvert" encounters is not objectionable because it undermines the challenge. In some non-gamist play (eg process simuation and world exploration) it may not be objectionable at all. Light gamism of the sort Balesir enjoys may also be able to accomodate it, provided the dosage is limited (if not somewhat limited, it might lead to too many encounters being ended in that fashion and therefore not creating the space for more intricate forms of showing off). A certain sort of hard gamism might also be able to tolerate, or even embrace them, if the main goal of play is to build PCs capable of serially and systematically rendering the challenges that the GM throws up irrelevant. (I personally wouldn't find this very satisfying, but I get the sense that there may be some 3E players who like this sort of thing - it makes "build" very important.)

Dragonlance-style story play doesn't like encounter-subverting abilities, I don't think, because they impede the story (the classic "Why didn't they just teleport to Mount Doom?" scenario). And I don't like them for my light narrativist play for a different reason, namely, they impede the GM's control over scene framing - and if the goal of play is to make the players make thematically interesting choices by confronting their PCs with urgent situations, you don't wan't the players to be able to just step their PCs out of those situations by using scene-reframing abilities.

What does this mean for teleport, disintegrate etc? You can change your balance metric from the encounter to the adventure (whatever exactly that means) and your story-telling group still won't want them (no teleporting to Mount Doom!), your light narrativist group still won't want them (even if resources are balanced over the adventure, resource management is just a means to an end, and the GM should still be exercising authority over scene-framing) and your light gamists will want them carefully rationed (ie no mechanic that lets you use them at a pace of exactly one per encounter).

Conversely, even if you keep your balance metric focused on the encounter, your hard gamist probably won't object to them, and your light gamist can probably tolerate them within the limits that I've mentioned.

So I think it's not always helpful to frame design arguments, or argue for design linkages, within a particular approach to play. Particularly when there have even been whole editions which, via text or mechanics or widespread practices among their players, have prioritised other approaches to play.
 

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And it may be. The thing I was thinking about Hit Points would be that the default assumption is they simply refresh after every "rest"/"pause" to full with the two (or whatever) modules presented starting on the very same page.
This would be the most boring dungeon crawl and computer game like game i could imagine. And also a very straining one for DMs, as every encounter needs to be finely balanced or you have your TPK right there.

Without daily resources, too easy and too difficult encounters are terrible, as the former don´t feel threatening at all, and the latter are TPK with nothing the PCs can do.

Even in 4e you heard many voices, that it does not feel deadly, but can easily result in a TPK. The reason is exactly, that with so few daily resources, you can´t really act strategically. Some classes, like the wizard in 4e can use a daily and make a too difficult encounter just right. But a slayer, who is essentially an encounter only class, can´t do nothing, if the encounter is more difficult as expected.

So, please people, think twice about wishing, that daily resources go. There is no game system without daily resources that i know... and I am sure this has its reasons.

edit: of course classes with only encounter powers can haver its place, (like the slayer) but daily resources are important.
 

Why? Why not have "no daily resources" in a module? Why not have the core, which is designed to provide the basic D&D experience, include daily resources, something that has been core in every edition of D&D ever? Why does your favorite style "need" to be core?

Because moduloes are add-ons, not take outs.
 


I've found that it is healing surges, not dailies, that provide the "hard cap" on going on - my players tend to ration their dailies, partly out of caution but partly just as a consequence of rational play, because dailies are often situational and so don't get used all at once or straightaway (and the players don't mind this because they know they have them in reserve for if the situation does come up, or if they think it is worth trying to create the situation).

This matches my experience. The "working day" length is driven by HP/surges related issues (inlcuding temporary hit points generation and damage resistance). Dailies are usually a sort of emergency button when things start to go south in an encounter (as action points are to some extent). Our barbarian sometimes uses a Rage per encounter in order to maximize the raging benefits over time, but I see a tendence to hoard them as well, to use Rage Strike in case there's a difficult encounter.
 


Not really. You could still have trivial encounters or very tough encounters or encountes the PCs'll probably have to run from. You just have a much clear idea, as the DM, on how to design them, since you don't have to worry about the party blowing resources unneccessarily on an early filler encounter, taking an extra rest at an unexpected juncture, or otherwise going into a fight greatly stronger or weaker than you'd expected when you designed it.

Emphasis mine....I consider the fact the the players may do these things a feature.


But I agree that guidelines to set up a "probable" result would be a good thing.
 

This would be the most boring dungeon crawl and computer game like game i could imagine. And also a very straining one for DMs, as every encounter needs to be finely balanced or you have your TPK right there.
If players are too lazy to read the next paragraph then they aren't worth marketing to. Same page, pick the health system that tailors to the game you want. Stretch the resource management and adventure style any way you'd like.

Without daily resources, too easy and too difficult encounters are terrible, as the former don´t feel threatening at all, and the latter are TPK with nothing the PCs can do.

The encounters are based on at-wills vs. monster basic attacks. When you add powers/spells to the character you use more of the monster's stat block.

So, please people, think twice about wishing, that daily resources go. There is no game system without daily resources that i know... and I am sure this has its reasons.

There are lots of systems with no daily resources (ninja'd) but you miss the point. The daily resources aren't core because they really screw up what WotC supposedly wants to do with this edition. You choose the daily resource system that fits your style.

In other words, they don't really go away, most groups will just pick the ones that best fit their game.
 

A daily-based system allows those threats to still consume some resource that you don't get back, so it's not a wash.
Sure, which only matters if you have daily resources to burn through to make the party feel 'challenged.' In an encounter system, you feel challenged by a tough encounter. It's just a different approach.

Ideally, 5e could present the DM with a sort of 'dial' which adjusts limited-use abilities, like memorized spells, healing surges/Hit Dice, and so forth. It could be turned down to 'encounter' or to 'day' or even up to 'story' (see below).

It might help if you dissociate the idea of "encounter" from the idea of a "scene."
Though it sounds a little pretentious, using 'scene' instead of encounter and 'story' instead of 'day' could work out really well. ;) It'd give the DM much more flexibility when it came to pacing.
 

One issue that crops up time and time again is how different groups have different-lengthed adventure days and the 15-minute adventuring day issue.

...

There's much talk about the "Nova" issue where players blow all their resources in an encounter then have nothing left for "the rest of the day".
...

Thoughts?

My impression has always been that the '15 minute day' and 'the nova problem' were rarely spoken of until WotC brought them up in the dying days of 3.5e. Since then quite a few people on ENworld have said that it is a problem they see, but an equal number have said 'never seen it as a problem'.

Personally, I'd be surprised if it was ever a problem for the majority of gaming groups around the world, I don't think it was a problem for the majority of gaming groups for 30 years, where D&D remained a popular game despite any supposed problems from daily resources.

So personally I don't think there will be any problem with having daily resources in D&DN.

Cheers
 

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