Encounter-based Design: The only smart elephant in the room

[Balesir]

My impression has always been that the '15 minute day' and 'the nova problem' were rarely spoken of until WotC brought them up in the dying days of 3.5e. Since then quite a few people on ENworld have said that it is a problem they see, but an equal number have said 'never seen it as a problem'.

Personally, I'd be surprised if it was ever a problem for the majority of gaming groups around the world, I don't think it was a problem for the majority of gaming groups for 30 years, where D&D remained a popular game despite any supposed problems from daily resources.

Using the somewhat emotive words may be new, but I think the phenomenon is real, albeit it didn't become clear to me until I read about it on web fora a little while after 4e's start. It might not have been clear to me at the time, but frustrations I experienced while playing fighters and a bard in 3.X suddenly snapped into focus when I read about this "issue" - times when I had been ready to adventure on, but the party "had to rest" because "we" were out of "decent spells" and such.

Of course the game was quite playable even with the issue. In a similar way, I lived over 50 years of my life without a smartphone - but if you want me to do so again, you'll have to prise my Android 'phone out of my cold, dead hand!!

 

[Kraydak]

A massive shift to Encounter powers will increase the tendency for a 15 minute-day, UNLESS hitpoints are also converted to Encounter powers (refreshing every short rest). This is because DMs and players hate irrelevant encounters. As a result, if the PCs have their full powers available every fight, every fight will require their use... and leave the PC hurt. At that point, they'll have to heal up. Given the complaints about healing after long rests (which complaints I agree with), I really don't think you'll get a lot of support for full heals after a short rest.

If you want to reduce the tendency to 1-encounter work-days, you need to avoid Encounter powers, and reduce Dailies to the point where PCs go into conservation mode. Further, you need a slew of weak encounters so the PCs can't blow Dailies on the easy fights and still make progress. Note that the easy fights then remain important: every hp lost, and every Daily effect spent is hard to replace, and you want them for the boss fight.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

My impression has always been that the '15 minute day' and 'the nova problem' were rarely spoken of until WotC brought them up in the dying days of 3.5e. Since then quite a few people on ENworld have said that it is a problem they see, but an equal number have said 'never seen it as a problem'.

Personally, I'd be surprised if it was ever a problem for the majority of gaming groups around the world, I don't think it was a problem for the majority of gaming groups for 30 years, where D&D remained a popular game despite any supposed problems from daily resources.

So personally I don't think there will be any problem with having daily resources in D&DN.

Cheers

I disagree - it will be a problem. For the people that experienced it before as a problem. But that may not be enough reason to do away with it, since not having it is also a problem for those that liked daily resources.

If you can't satisfy both, figure out what's the default for D&D and stick to that. At least that seems to me the D&D Next approach. If they made a D&D 4++ they'd probably say "we can fix this problem even better" or "we have another idea how to fix it" and come up with something new.

 

[pemerton]

My impression has always been that the '15 minute day' and 'the nova problem' were rarely spoken of until WotC brought them up in the dying days of 3.5e.

<snip>

Personally, I'd be surprised if it was ever a problem for the majority of gaming groups around the world

I can only speak for myself - it's been an issue for as long as I've been GMing fantasy RPGs with recovery of resources (mostly spells) on a daily cycle.

That is, both in AD&D and in Rolemaster.

As I posted above, in 4e the hard cap resouce is no longer spells/daily powers, but rather healing surges.

Using the somewhat emotive words may be new, but I think the phenomenon is real

I didn't give it any name, but the phenomenon was very real and noted in all my years of play - when the wizards are out of spells, we all rest!

My experiencing of the phenomenon may be coloured by the fact that I've always run long campaigns, where much of the action happens at mid-to-high levels, and therefore (except in 4e) the magical resources available to spellcasters are a crucial component of overall party resources.

A massive shift to Encounter powers will increase the tendency for a 15 minute-day, UNLESS hitpoints are also converted to Encounter powers (refreshing every short rest). This is because DMs and players hate irrelevant encounters. As a result, if the PCs have their full powers available every fight, every fight will require their use... and leave the PC hurt. At that point, they'll have to heal up. Given the complaints about healing after long rests (which complaints I agree with), I really don't think you'll get a lot of support for full heals after a short rest.

What you describe here is 4e, except that 4e has the additional daily cap on such short-rest heals (ie after a certain number of them, you run out of surges and so have to rest for longer).

I think that a certain sort of 3E plays the same way, only healng is via wand rather than surge, and the hard cap is the supply of magic items. (And ultimately, therefore, the supply of gold.)

So there's at least a noticeable constituency of D&D players (ie the ones who play 4e, plus those who play 3E with wands of CLW) for whom what you describe is toleable if not desirable.

 

[FireLance]

This would be the most boring dungeon crawl and computer game like game i could imagine. And also a very straining one for DMs, as every encounter needs to be finely balanced or you have your TPK right there.

IMO, games that allow for all resources to refresh after each encounter aren't necessarily hard to balance. There is a whole range of encounter difficulty between "walkover" and "will likely result in a TPK". The DM just has to keep the difficulty of his encounters somewhere in the (say) two middle quartiles of this range (i.e. the middle 25% to 75% of the range).

EDIT: In fact, I would say that such games are easier to balance because the party's starting capability in each encounter is a constant, and not dependant on how many daily powers or resources they have expended in the previous encounters.

In addition, there are a number of psychological tricks which can be employed to make the players feel as if their characters are threatened even though mathematically, their chances of survival are better than 90%. The 4e bloodied condition is a good example.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Simply put, the only way to make a game that can fit all the playstyles is to have a core with no daily resources. They need to be in modules or D&DN is destined to not unify anyone.

Thoughts?

I disagree - 4e almost got it right. But did so by referring to an Extended Rest rather than sleeping the night. You can then set the rate of recharge of "daily" resources to match the campaign - for instance my Kingmaker campaign the PCs could only take an extended rest by spending a few days in a friendly town (or at the trading post). That really opens up the playstyles while keeping the operational play running and the classic single days for them as wants it.

And a set of optional rules on when you can actually recover the resources that are by default recovered daily should satisfy everyone.

 

[Tony Vargas]

A massive shift to Encounter powers will increase the tendency for a 15 minute-day, UNLESS hitpoints are also converted to Encounter powers (refreshing every short rest).

Encounter-based design would mean making hps an encounter resource, yes. "'D&D' Gamma World" works that way, for instance.

 

[Li Shenron]

Simply put, the only way to make a game that can fit all the playstyles is to have a core with no daily resources.

It's one way, but not the only way. Also, it has the limitation of not allowing the playstyle of actually wanting the challenge of not knowing how many encounters you'll have in the day and having to be cautious with your resources.

Another way, is to let the gaming group "dial" the amount of daily resources depending on their campaign style.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

IMO, games that allow for all resources to refresh after each encounter aren't necessarily hard to balance. There is a whole range of encounter difficulty between "walkover" and "will likely result in a TPK". The DM just has to keep the difficulty of his encounters somewhere in the (say) two middle quartiles of this range (i.e. the middle 25% to 75% of the range).

EDIT: In fact, I would say that such games are easier to balance because the party's starting capability in each encounter is a constant, and not dependant on how many daily powers or resources they have expended in the previous encounters.

In addition, there are a number of psychological tricks which can be employed to make the players feel as if their characters are threatened even though mathematically, their chances of survival are better than 90%. The 4e bloodied condition is a good example.

Yeah, but it only works for a while. I haveDMed 4e for a while and would still DM it, if I had the time. I know, that you can make it a bit harder and a bit easier. But from a player point of view, with DM background, I think most combats are absolutely boring. I know that all fights need to be balanced, as I have only 1 daily to fall back on, if the encounter is harder. And this daily is only borderline more powerful than an at-will. It is like standing there, doing the same things over and over again.

When I DMed 5e, Combats involved hit and run, and using a spell, in just the right situation to completely turn the tide of battle. and without that single spell, ot would have been a certain TPK (6 Gnolls vs 2 PCs).
So I see a lot of merit in daily resources. They just need to be powerful enough, that you don´t have to spam them.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In addition, there are a number of psychological tricks which can be employed to make the players feel as if their characters are threatened even though mathematically, their chances of survival are better than 90%. The 4e bloodied condition is a good example.

Generally, 4E "yo-yo" healing is also part of that. Bloodied is one component, but generally - even in an "easy" combat, you can be brought down to 0 - and once you need healing to survive, there is always tension.