D&D 5E Encounter difficulty: how to fix it.

[Elric]

I don't understand what you're saying here. What do you mean by "let's try a party of X?" Are you talking about the number of PCs? The number of goblins? The level of the PCs?

He means the number of goblins.

When I calculate using the official method, I get 14. I don't understand the magic that happened for you to get that down to 12. By my calculations, a party of 4 PCs against 12 goblins (outnumbered 3 to 1) is only (12)(50)(2) = 1200 XP. That falls well below the hill giant's 1800. Your 11-goblin team is even worse, at 1100 (by the official method) -- and that is generously saying that 11 vs. 4 is a 3:1 ratio. The total for 11 goblins should actually be slightly less.

The key is that you can't easily figure out the number of goblins that is equivalent to a giant in the official encounter XP multiplier system because you have to try out multiple numbers of goblins and see if the XP per goblin * the number of goblins * the multiplier equals the XP for the giant. You can't simply divide 1800 (the giant's XP) by 50 (the goblin's XP). And a group of 11-14 monsters is x3 XP, which is how he gets the answer of 12 goblins. 50 * 12 * 3= 1800.

Encounter XP Multipliers
Number of Monsters XP Multiplier
Single Monster —
Pair (2 monsters) × 1.5
Group (3-6 monsters) × 2
Gang (7-10 monsters) × 2.5
Mob (11-14 monsters) × 3
Horde (15 or more monsters) × 4

 

[Tormyr]

I don't understand what you're saying here. What do you mean by "let's try a party of X?" Are you talking about the number of PCs? The number of goblins? The level of the PCs?

When I calculate using the official method, I get 14. I don't understand the magic that happened for you to get that down to 12. By my calculations, a party of 4 PCs against 12 goblins (outnumbered 3 to 1) is only (12)(50)(2) = 1200 XP. That falls well below the hill giant's 1800. Your 11-goblin team is even worse, at 1100 (by the official method) -- and that is generously saying that 11 vs. 4 is a 3:1 ratio. The total for 11 goblins should actually be slightly less.

[MENTION=6780929]Gobelure[/MENTION] was referring to the size of the monster party. 7-10 is the range for a 2.5x multiplier, and 11-14 is the range for the 3x multiplier. 12 goblins x 50xp x 3 multiplier is 1800.

Spreadsheets rule the day here. I can get these calcs done in seconds. Even without the spreadsheat, I don't agree that PEL is any easier at all. Having to look up a CR12 creature for 8400xp versus a 32 PEL is a wash. The lookups are the same, the maths are the same (adding everything up). They only thing that is different is the multiplier.

And that is where PEL might shine. While the xp budget has hard steps in its multipliers (why is goblin 14 worth only 150 XP while Goblin 15 is worth 900 XP?), each goblin is worth a constant increase in both base XP plus some built-in multiplier. The methods line up at the middle of the XP budget multiplier ranges, but they separate where the multipliers change (i.e. 14 to 15 monsters). The other spot where this diverges a little bit is in the easy, moderate, hard and deadly thresholds, where the XP budget method is not fixed percentages of deadly.

I am not sure about whether PEL works well with mismatched groups of monsters (high CR plus low CR) because I have not run much in the way of those mixed monster groups. Although I will be running one next week.

As a suggestion to [MENTION=6780929]Gobelure[/MENTION], is there a way to get the results in the normal XP budget numbers? The thing that really shines in this method is the ramping up of monster difficulty. Since the party is only supposed to get the base (not the multiplied) xp of the monsters could you apply your multiplier to the XP required by the party and the XP given by the monsters (i.e. pull the PEL numbers out)?

 

[Joe Liker]

The key is that you can't easily figure out the number of goblins that is equivalent to a giant in the official encounter XP multiplier system because you have to try out multiple numbers of goblins and see if the XP per goblin * the number of goblins * the multiplier equals the XP for the giant. You can't simply divide 1800 (the giant's XP) by 50 (the goblin's XP). And a group of 11-14 monsters is x3 XP, which is how he gets the answer of 12 goblins. 50 * 12 * 3= 1800.

Are we all reading the same guidelines? The article I've been using says if the PCs are outnumbered 3 to 1, it's only double the XP.

If there's been an update to that, it's no wonder I'm confused!

 

[Elric]

Are we all reading the same guidelines? The article I've been using says if the PCs are outnumbered 3 to 1, it's only double the XP.

If there's been an update to that, it's no wonder I'm confused!

There has been an update, see p. 57 of the DM Basic encounter guidelines. http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMDnDBasicRules_v0.1.pdf

 

[Boarstorm]

The DM Basic pdf has updated guidelines.

 

[Tormyr]

Since the Basic DMG specifically says that this is a work in progress, I will be interested to see what the final guidelines look like.

 

[Joe Liker]

EDIT: Ohh. Those guidelines look complicated and stupid. I think my real issue is with the update.

That's preposterous! Why would a more difficult encounter not result in a higher XP reward?! "Work in progress," indeed!

I will be using the July 7 guidelines, thank you very much.

 

[Tormyr]

EDIT: Ohh. Those guidelines look complicated and stupid. I think my real issue is with the update.

That's preposterous! Why would a more difficult encounter not result in a higher XP reward?! "Work in progress," indeed!

I will be using the July 7 guidelines, thank you very much.

We are all working off of the Basic DMG which is available from a link on the right side of the main page of enworld. On page 57, on the right side, it mentions that the multiplier is only used to gauge difficulty of the encounter not as the basis of the reward. The XP reward stays at just the value of the creatures/ traps/ etc.

EDIT: Wow, ninja edit. I replied to a completely different post.

I would suggest you use the tables and multipliers from the Basic DMG (or PEL) as it may more closely resemble difficulty in actual play. I know plenty of people who think you should be awarded the xp for the difficulty of the encounter as a whole. One thing that giving just the monster xp gives you is a slowing down of PC progression through levels. Use the base xp for a longer running campaign. Use the increased xp for a campaign that will finish more quickly.

And then in November it may all change again.

 

[Joe Liker]

We are all working off of the Basic DMG which is available from a link on the right side of the main page of enworld. On page 57, on the right side, it mentions that the multiplier is only used to gauge difficulty of the encounter not as the basis of the reward. The XP reward stays at just the value of the creatures/ traps/ etc.

Right, like I said, that's absurd. I'm not using those rules.

 

[Boarstorm]

That's preposterous! Why would a more difficult encounter not result in a higher XP reward?! "Work in progress," indeed!

I think it's to prevent the PCs from gaming the system.

If you gave increased XP via these guidelines, then the players are incentivized to find hordes to crush as opposed to seeking out threats of an appropriate CR. It's metagaming, sure. But I think that's what they were trying to circumvent.

Edit: Don't use those rules if they don't make sense to you. More power to ya! But they're a reality of the system as of right now, so those of us who are using them have to take them into account.