Encounter Levels for large parties

[jontherev]

Howdy. I have a party of 7 PC's, and they also each have intelligent items that gain powers as they level. Without posting the actual items, I'll just say that they are pretty nice and get better as they level up. Right now, I'm thinking of adding +1 to the average party level, based solely on the number of players, and an additional +1 for their items. So, right now, even though the average party level is 3, I'm treating them as if they are 5th level for estimating the appropriate encounter levels. Does this seem reasonable?

I'm a new DM, so I'm not used to this kind of stuff. Also, I am thinking of raising the average party level AGAIN at some point in the future, due to the items they have.

So far this strategy has worked, but we're only 3rd level. The only problem was when they were 1st level and wound up fighting a CR 3...I had to lie on several rolls to keep the party alive. Since they leveled up, that problem hasn't recurred. This is becoming a slight chore because I have to bump up all of the critters in the modules I have planned, but it's not too bad. It takes MUCH less time than writing from scratch! Thanks!

 

[Erywin]

There are some really good xp/challenge calculators out there in excel format that do a really nice job of estimating challenges relative to the party. If the intellegent magic items are highly above norm then I would give each character +1 ECL. Don't add anymore ECL due to large party size, the excel sheets will help with that. I would post a link but I am currently away from home and don't have my bookmarks with me

Cheers,
E

 

[kenobi65]

The general rule of thumb, that I've seen in multiple places (and that I use with a fair amount of success) is that, for each additional 2 PCs beyond the game's benchmark of a 4-PC party, add +1 to the effective level of the party.

There are some situations in which that relationship doesn't always hold, however, and I think 1st level is probably one of them (see the thread on a party of 1st level PCs vs. an ogre).

 

[Erywin]

Oh one other thing that I have found while DMing a group with 6 players, sometimes its best to add more lower level creatures to challenge them rather than increase the power of the already existing creatures. I find that my 6 PCs can just murder single large creatures that are quite a bit more powerful than them, but if I send a bunch of medium powered foes, they have a much harder time. This is due to the fact that a single creature has one a single turn to do something, while the 6 PCs have 6 turns to slaughter the beast. Now if you add in 2 or 3 creatures, the bad guys have 3 or 4 actions to the PCs 6. Just some food for thought, plus if they are mooks just use the same stats Less prep time that way

Cheers,
E

 

[kenobi65]

Oh one other thing that I have found while DMing a group with 6 players, sometimes its best to add more lower level creatures to challenge them rather than increase the power of the already existing creatures. I find that my 6 PCs can just murder single large creatures that are quite a bit more powerful than them, but if I send a bunch of medium powered foes, they have a much harder time.

Indeed. When you have a large party of PCs versus one monster, that's an awful lot of bad things that can happen to Mr. Monster in between his actions.

In almost every case I've seen, a big party versus one monster, even if it, in theory, is a "challenging" encounter for the party, winds up with the party completely obliterating the monster without breaking much of a sweat.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

With seven PCs... You really have basically two party's so... The easiest thing to do is, whenever possible, double the number of critters that you would use for a four PC party.

In some cases, this is not practical (not every bad guy is going to have a twin brother, for instance), but the method is still basically the same. Instead of having a single, more powerful critter, you want to have more critters. A bad guy and his minions, for example, with each being about as poerful as the other.

Later
silver

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Indeed. When you have a large party of PCs versus one monster, that's an awful lot of bad things that can happen to Mr. Monster in between his actions.

In almost every case I've seen, a big party versus one monster, even if it, in theory, is a "challenging" encounter for the party, winds up with the party completely obliterating the monster without breaking much of a sweat.

That is what I've usually seen also, but I have also witnessed the flip side when the monster gets the initiative and one PC gets killed in a single round because unless they are the front line fighter, they don't yet have the AC and HP to withstand the higher CR creature's attack. We lost more than one scout that way.

Then the creature is shredded by the number of attacks from the surviving party members and doesn't get a second chance to kill.

 

[kigmatzomat]

The exception are "boss" battles where you are doing CRarty+2 or +3. In those cases, you might accidentally use a creature with excessive DR/SR/AC that makes them nigh invulnerable or that have "instakill" abilities when used against PCs without the expected magical defenses.

My group has 7 PCs plus three cohort casters. (Soon to be four or five cohorts. Whee!) We're at 20th level so I've got few concerns about killing PCs but if I use a singular boss at ~CR26 I generally anticipate at least 2 PC deaths per encounter.

Mobs are harder to run against PCs from the management standpoint; tactically I prefer to mob the party. Overrun and assist-other grapples can be quite entertaining. For a starting DM, add the extra oomph by adding one or two creatures near the target CR to reduce the brain-strain. For BBBEG encounters, use two or three creatures of similar types since you can explain them as family units, tribes, or any other clique. It cuts the strain and is still logical.

 

[Thunderfoot]

With seven PCs... You really have basically two party's so... The easiest thing to do is, whenever possible, double the number of critters that you would use for a four PC party.

In some cases, this is not practical (not every bad guy is going to have a twin brother, for instance), but the method is still basically the same. Instead of having a single, more powerful critter, you want to have more critters. A bad guy and his minions, for example, with each being about as poerful as the other.

Later
silver

This is very good advice - I am currently running a party with 12 characters, triple encouters makes for a more even fight. Higher level encounters run one of two ways, the party walks over them, or they walk over the party; there is very rarely any middle ground.

As for BBEG and minions, here you can deviate, slightly, bump the BBEG up a level or two above the party average and then adjust fire on the minions, (a couple of them about 2 levels lower than the party average or triple the number at three or more levels below)

Another thing to do is if you have any real fears, take the party's stats and 'ghost' run it beforehand (you are keeping track of their stats, right?). Play a couple of combat rounds with just straight melee, just missile, just spells, just special attacks and then try to do a 'combined arms' just to see if it's close. You don't have to do this for every encounter, and once you get the hang of the levels, CRs and ECLs, the rest is cake.

Hope this helps.
Happy gaming.

 

[questing gm]

I have this theory of the EL mechanics

when calculating what is the best EL to throw at your party and to calculate your party level, you treat your party members as the monsters.

So, in your case of seven of 3rds, you use the table to see what is the encounter level of the party. Then you reverse the reading, using the new encounter level to find the appropriate encounter level for 7 monsters of CR 3.

Just a theory, havent had enough players to prove that it works yet. Would you like to be my experiment ?