Encounter Levels for large parties

[GlassJaw]

Use the Sum of the Squares method (aka ChiRoh).

The standard CR system in the DMG does a horrid job at taking into account numbers when determing appropriate challenges.

Basically, square the level of each participant and then add those numbers together. Do that for each side and you will get a suprisingly accurate comparison.

 

[freyar]

Use the Sum of the Squares method (aka KiRoh).

The standard CR system in the DMG does a horrid job at taking into account numbers when determing appropriate challenges.

Basically, square the level of each participant and then add those numbers together. Do that for each side and you will get a suprisingly accurate comparison.

As mentioned above, there are some nice calculators available on the web that will do this for you. I can't remember where, but perhaps I'll post one I've found on my web site for general use (there was a link to one in the EN World toolbox, but the link seems broken). Try googling "EL calculator."

Other posts mentioned, though, that it's not just about matching power levels. Using one powerful monster vs a bunch of PCs might look fine in practice but isn't usually a great encounter. I've seen a lot of advice (including in some WotC web articles) that agree that you should up the number of monsters rather than just increase the CR of individuals.

 

[GlassJaw]

As mentioned above, there are some nice calculators available on the web that will do this for you. I can't remember where, but perhaps I'll post one I've found on my web site for general use (there was a link to one in the EN World toolbox, but the link seems broken). Try googling "EL calculator."

You can also find it in Grim Tales and in Wulf's Gamemastering PDF. Highly recommended:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=4036&

 

[Ender_rpm]

+1 for adding more, weaker foes vice one bigger, stronger one. I TPK'd a 7 member party by throwing a +2 CR critter at them. It was a dragon, but still...

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Yes, technically +2 CR and x2 creatures are "EL equivalent."

However, it is always true that more creatures means more die rolls, and more die rolls means that you will lessen the impact of unusual rolls-- hits, misses, crits, failed saves, etc.

The more dice you roll, the more resilient the combat will be to the catastrophically unexpected.

And that goes for both sides. Your +2 CR BBEG is more susceptible to getting ganked by rolling an inopportune 1 on his saving throw, than two slightly weaker BBEGs.

I think a combination of methods is ok, too.

 

[jontherev]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Our old DM had very similar advice for me, as far as increasing the number of critters. Still, I like the idea of having a more powerful creature than they are used to fighting occasionally. Luckily, I have a few levels to play around with before they start Red Hand of Doom (can't wait...I think this module is SO good and am very excited to begin it). At some point, I'll have to go through RHoD and bump up the critters. I haven't had time to check out that link for the calculator, but it sounds like a great tool. Tonight is the first session with the new 7th player, so we will see how they fare against my formula of ECL+2.

 

[freyar]

I would have edited my previous post, but to bump this thread up where you'll find it:

Here is the calculator, which is I think the version I got off EN World's link a while back. There are (or were) several versions floating around on the web, and this is the most up-to-date I found.

 

[Erywin]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Our old DM had very similar advice for me, as far as increasing the number of critters. Still, I like the idea of having a more powerful creature than they are used to fighting occasionally. Luckily, I have a few levels to play around with before they start Red Hand of Doom (can't wait...I think this module is SO good and am very excited to begin it). At some point, I'll have to go through RHoD and bump up the critters. I haven't had time to check out that link for the calculator, but it sounds like a great tool. Tonight is the first session with the new 7th player, so we will see how they fare against my formula of ECL+2.

Thats the great thing about the calculator, instead of doubling the amount of creatures, you could add 1-3 levels or CR to the focus baddie, and then increase the mooks by 1/3 again as many, plug it into the calculator and see how challenging it is Its all about juggling around what might and might not work. IMC the last "monster" the PCs fought was an ex-PC of one of my players, he had been abducted by mindflayers and turned into a voidmind. It had been close to a year in and out of game since the character swap happened so with the rebuilding rules in PHB2 I restatted up the character and optimized him a bit more as well as streamlining him. A gestalted Voidmind Shifter Monk 12/Druid 12 is NOT CR 15 like the numbers would point out... He could've easily decimated the party but he had other plans *evil grin* Its all about what you throw at them.

Cheers,
E

 

[frankthedm]

Lots of mooks. Even when the first level orc warriors stop giving XP, keep using them. Flood them in and don't be shy about giving PCs AoOs with the mooks. Make sure everyone has something to kill.

Can't use orcs? Use cultists. Cant use cultists? Use low HD fiendish critters. Lots of foes to eat up PC's actions and be killed in droves. Have vaults of zombies in an evil cleric lairs to be released in just such emergencies. Devils commanding mobs of lemures.

 

[Erywin]

Love the way you think frank