Energy drain

[Kerrick]

As I was looking over enervation and energy drain a little while ago, I had an idea. Energy drain is kind of cool, but negative levels are stupid - even with them being simplified in 3.5, it's still more stuff to keep track of, AND you lose XP if they become "permanent".

So, I thought, why not just make it hit point drain? The number of hit points drained depends on your HD type: 2 (1d4), 3 (1d6), 4 (1d8), 5 (1d10), or 6 (1d12). In the case of multiclass PCs, negative levels are always taken from the highest class first; if that class is drained to 0 levels, then it starts on the next highest, etc. If two or more classes are equal, then it goes with the highest HD. 24 hours after losing the HD/hit points, you make a second Fort save as normal or lose them permanently. If the creature's effective HD total is reduced to 0, or its hp total to 0 (or negative Con score for PCs), it dies.

Lost hit points can be recovered at the rate of 1 HD's worth per day of rest; a lesser restoration will restore 1d4 HD, restoration 1d6+1, and greater 1d8+2 (the latter two will restore permanently lost hp). There's no second save - it's "do it once and be done".

In any case, there are NO other penalties applied. Since the spell is not actually draining HD/levels, there is no need for it.

Since this would nerf enervation/energy drain (not that they were very powerful to begin with), I'd suggest boosting the number of HD drained; maybe 1d4+1/level (up to +15) for enervation, and 2d4+1/level (to +25) for energy drain. That would make them nasty spells (and much better than now, IMO), but not necessarily insta-kill.

 

[Angrydad]

I like the idea of it being an HP drain outright, but I also like the fact that energy drain also causes a to hit penalty. You might just leave it at X number HP drained and a -1 to attacks per successful energy drains. I tend to not use monsters that have these types of abilities, or if I do it's a vampire who's kind of a major villain, so the players don't really deal with the vampire in person for some time.

 

[Kerrick]

IOW, keep the penalty (-1 to attacks, saves, and skill/ability checks*) per HD drained? That's doable, and not a bad idea. Maybe have it last for 1 hour per HD drained or until the lost hp are restored, whichever comes first. So, if you got drained 3 HD, you'd suffer a -3 penalty for an hour, then -2 for an hour, then -1.

*I'd drop the penalty to saves, since it wouldn't fit, but keep attacks and skill/ability checks.

 

[Angrydad]

I'd still keep the penalty to saves. To me, energy drain effects represent assaults on your basic life force, and since your life force/essence's strength would influence you ability to resist other forms of attack the save penalty still makes sense. It's a pain in the butt to deal with it all, but does some useful or scary things (depending on whether you're on the dealing or receiving end).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Since this would nerf enervation/energy drain (not that they were very powerful to begin with), I'd suggest boosting the number of HD drained; maybe 1d4+1/level (up to +15) for enervation, and 2d4+1/level (to +25) for energy drain. That would make them nasty spells (and much better than now, IMO), but not necessarily insta-kill.

Are you crazy? No, I really mean it. You think those spells are weak?

 

[Kerrick]

I'd still keep the penalty to saves. To me, energy drain effects represent assaults on your basic life force, and since your life force/essence's strength would influence you ability to resist other forms of attack the save penalty still makes sense.

True. The main reason I wanted to ditch the penalties in the first place is because of bookkeeping.

Are you crazy? No, I really mean it. You think those spells are weak?

Well... kind of. I mean, if you fail a Fort save, you lose 5d4 hp and suffer a -1d4 penalty to attack rolls, saves, and skill/ability checks for 1 hour/level. It's a lot more useful in the hands of an NPC, because those penalties aren't going to help the PCs much - they'll factor in for a few rounds before the PCs kill the monster. Gaining 5d4 hp is nice, but you can do just as well, if not better, with spectral hand/vampiric touch (3d6 at 7th level, and it continues to scale to 20th, where it's a LOT better than energy drain - 10d6 vs. 10d4).

Energy drain is even more underpowered for its level - by that time, you've got wail, weird, time stop, etc. Course, I'd change the spell levels anyway - energy drain should be 7th at best.

So, they're not underpowered as such, but they're not overly powerful either.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

True. The main reason I wanted to ditch the penalties in the first place is because of bookkeeping.


Well... kind of. I mean, if you fail a Fort save, you lose 5d4 hp and suffer a -1d4 penalty to attack rolls, saves, and skill/ability checks for 1 hour/level. It's a lot more useful in the hands of an NPC, because those penalties aren't going to help the PCs much - they'll factor in for a few rounds before the PCs kill the monster. Gaining 5d4 hp is nice, but you can do just as well, if not better, with spectral hand/vampiric touch (3d6 at 7th level, and it continues to scale to 20th, where it's a LOT better than energy drain - 10d6 vs. 10d4).

Energy drain is even more underpowered for its level - by that time, you've got wail, weird, time stop, etc. Course, I'd change the spell levels anyway - energy drain should be 7th at best.

So, they're not underpowered as such, but they're not overly powerful either.

Save or dies don't work very often, except against mooks.
Negative levels skew your chances of survival a lot. Your poor saves quickly go to negatives, your good saves become poor, you suddenly can't hit anything reliably. Your spell slots go away, along with your ability to overcome SR.

I squared my group off against something with energy drain, even spread its attacks around so no one got focus-fired, and the party retreated with several people at 1 or 2 hits from death and they ended up with about 10% chance to hit the creature, at best.
It should have been a difficult encounter, but once the negative levels started stacking, it became impossible. It was the end encounter of a whole module, and the party went in and got mauled, ran away. I had even toned down the energy drain by half, and 'forgot' to use several of the suprise abilities and gizmos I had planned. The party went into the encounter knowing full well what the creature could do, as they had fought it briefly twice before.

In another game, a creature was throwing energy draining spells and hammering the party at range soaking up high level spell slots and SR penetration, and the single time I reflected it stole the creature's ability to even use that spell. The rest of the encounter was very short.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Kerrick,

Sorry if you were talking about your version. I thought that you were saying the Enervation spells as they exist in the rules are weak. Your versions seem fine. The RAW ones are insanely powerful, cause they basically smash a caster's teeth down his throat. It also makes a great lead in/defense for/against abilities based on a level comparison, like Blasphemy.

 

[Kerrick]

Sorry if you were talking about your version. I thought that you were saying the Enervation spells as they exist in the rules are weak. Your versions seem fine. The RAW ones are insanely powerful, cause they basically smash a caster's teeth down his throat. It also makes a great lead in/defense for/against abilities based on a level comparison, like Blasphemy.

Actually, I was. But, I'd totally forgotten about loss of spell slots/caster levels. That makes a huge difference, and makes the spells really powerful. It also creates a huge headache with bookkeeping... "I've been drained two levels... okay, I lost my highest-level spells, and I need to figure out which other spells I lose, and... " Ugh. Screw that.