Energy Immunity is the DEVIL!

[Merlion]

I agree with you here, for sure.

in 3e I think too many things were given the 'immunity to fire' (etc) trick too often. I can see elementals or other creatures that are actually *constructed* from fire being immune to it, but other stuff like Fire Giants? Fire Resist 30 would be good enough for them.

Also, having some elemental/energy spells that arent simply damage attacks would be nice too. Theres like a chains of fire type spell in AE, for example. I could see a fire mage using that on a fire giant...the giant wouldnt take damage, but he'd still be caught.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I think I take the opposite view to you here. What you describe as PCs being one trick ponies, I'd consider to be 'conceptually themed'

In 3e its pretty tough if you want to be a 'fire mage' or a mage with some other elemental theme, because you'll find lots of opponents you just can't ever touch. So do you abandon your theme or get out that crossbow or what? 3e actually encourages the 'sameness' of making sure that all casters have a way of causing each of the elemental damage types.

I would prefer a system that made it easier for PCs to have distinctly themed characters who were still viable (to some degree) against a whole range of opponents.

Cheers

Another suggestion as to the "elemental mage"-type character is to give him control powers over same-type creatures and "striker" powers against non-same-type creatures. This is actually a bit of a hole in the core rules; buffing/charming/summoning/utility powers are rarely as tightly themed as offensive spells.

Ideally, we want a world in which it makes sense for folk dwelling in cold climes to be cold wizards, etc. The current setup pretty much guarantees that anyone traveling in a cold region is going to load up on as many fire spells as he can carry.

 

[Merlion]

Another suggestion as to the "elemental mage"-type character is to give him control powers over same-type creatures and "striker" powers against non-same-type creatures. This is actually a bit of a hole in the core rules; buffing/charming/summoning/utility powers are rarely as tightly themed as offensive spells.

Ideally, we want a world in which it makes sense for folk dwelling in cold climes to be cold wizards, etc. The current setup pretty much guarantees that anyone traveling in a cold region is going to load up on as many fire spells as he can carry.

Ooo this is also quite an interesting line of thought, Mr. Person-Who-Doesn't-have-an-avatar-I-can-name-them-after.

 

[coyote6]

Well duh. You need a katana

Wielded by a ninja.

A Lakota ninja.*

to cut up tanks.

[size=-2]*That's a really old GURPSnet-L in-joke.[/size]

 

[Rechan]

I think Energy Resistance has its place. The Knight who seeks out the Fire-resistant armor so he can go slay the dragon without becoming toasty.

But more importantly (and this is why I like energy immunity/resistance), I like the ability to center damage spells on myself. "Oh you're going to rush me? Fine, I fireball my feet; eat the damage". Or "The mage is throwing fireballs, and it doesn't hurt me because I've got a hefty resistance." It's a tactical advantage that helps with friendly fire, as opposed to enemies.

Another suggestion as to the "elemental mage"-type character is to give him control powers over same-type creatures and "striker" powers against non-same-type creatures. This is actually a bit of a hole in the core rules; buffing/charming/summoning/utility powers are rarely as tightly themed as offensive spells.

You mean like this?

Fire Domain
Granted Power: Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster fire creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead.

I'd honestly prefer something like ER 5/fire (more like DR, where you need the specific energy type to deal full damage).

Thus a weak devil might have ER 5/acid or electricity; a strong devil might have ER 15/acid.

I much prefer that vulnerabilities be the secret knowledge that is sought after.

This is actually a lot like 5th Edition HERO. Attacks that do damage are often in two categories: Physical or Energy; a punch is physical, a laser beam is energy. Armor gives defenses for both, or one or the other, and armor functions like DR; you have to overcome the number, and anything past that point is damage. The nice thing is, the Energy Defense qualifies for ALL energy; a fireball and a laser beam aren't differentiated.

Now you can have a character (or creature) that has a Disadvantage (Double damage from Fire) or a character who has (Immunity: Fire), but unless the enemy's theme is Fire based, you're still going to be dealing with all kinds of different elements and energy types. Just being Fire Based doesn't do jack against fighting an Ice character, unless you build your character to be able to take less damage from Ice, or that guy's character is designed to be hurt by fire.

 

[ruleslawyer]

You mean like this?

Sure. That's a great example of a power that works along this theme... except that it's a bit ancillary. I'd like to see more and different powers along this line for themed casters.

 

[Rechan]

Sure. That's a great example of a power that works along this theme... except that it's a bit ancillary. I'd like to see more and different powers along this line for themed casters.

Another idea is to have a themed character able to take power away from such a creature.

For instance a Fire Mage able to suck the fire out of a Balrog, or whatever. Instead of stoking their power by infusing them with more of their given energy, the mage is dampening or sucking the power out. Being able to cancel out the Dragon's fire breath by taking its power and energizing your own spells.

Another thought is the ability to "punch through" immunity or resistance. Similar to how one can punch through spell resistance with Spell Penetration.

 

[Paradox]

No kidding!

My wife has a warmage/elemental savant, and one of her class features is it turns ALL energy type spells to fire. (Her chosen theme.) But... it seems she can't turn it off. Which means when we go up against something that has fire immunity (and strangely that's what all the bad guys seem to have now....) she can't just turn off that feature to give the regular type energy.

 

[green slime]

I'd honestly prefer something like ER 5/fire (more like DR, where you need the specific energy type to deal full damage).

Thus a weak devil might have ER 5/acid or electricity; a strong devil might have ER 15/acid.

I much prefer that vulnerabilities be the secret knowledge that is sought after.

Cheers, -- N

PS: This would also remove the "power via neglect" that accreted around Sonic damage.

But this hardly matters, when all players have "the secret knowledge". IMO, this kind of stuff is best left to the DM to decide. Leaving it campaign specific, means that there is no way player knowledge can interfere with character knowledge.

 

[Nifft]

But this hardly matters, when all players have "the secret knowledge". IMO, this kind of stuff is best left to the DM to decide. Leaving it campaign specific, means that there is no way player knowledge can interfere with character knowledge.

I think you're missing something here:

1/ Turning it around from "immune to x,y,z" into "resists 15/except fire" turns around player expectations. The players know that they are going to be less effective attacking with energy (just like a melee guy knows he's going to be less effective against a critter with DR).

2/ Reducing the Energy Resistances to the range of values generally accepted for Damage Reduction means that the mage won't be useless, he just won't be as effective. Some spells like scorching ray are more severely impacted, but that's otherwise a very strong spell for its level, so I'm not too worried.

3/ Sonic is a huge problem IMHO; acid similar but not as bad. In 3.5e monster design, neglect = power. But then, new spells come along and grant more access to neglected energy types...

Cheers, -- N

PS: For example, an Ice Devil has immunity to fire, and resists acid & cold. It also has regeneration. Why does it resist acid? Why is it vulnerable to electricity and sonic? Under my re-write, they would instead be immune to cold, and have ER 10/sonic or electricity, with a note: "Gelugons from deep ${COLD_HELL} instead have ER 10/fire; those native to the icy peaks of ${STORM_HELL} instead have ER 10/acid."