Enhanced Stats and Spells

[drnuncheon]

The quotes above tell how and when this sort of thing happens, and it is after resting, during the preperation time. You do not gain them at any other time, so why should you lose them at any other time?

The rules you quote are not about gaining or losing slots. They are about putting things in slots. So they're not strictly relevant to this case (except in determining when you can put spells in any newly gained slots you might get). They certainly don't say anything about removing slots.

If you gain and lose slots immediately, the rules behave exactly as I have described. Since the default case for effects is that they happen immediately (and not at some time in the future), I have every reason to believe my interpretation is valid.

J

 

[Scion]

none so blind as those who will not see.

hard to put something into something that you do not have yes?

the rules do state when you gain the spells, and how to lose them. but no where does anything support your claim of them being lost immediately.

werent you going away until you had some real evidence?

 

[drnuncheon]

hard to put something into something that you do not have yes?

Absolutely. But that doesn't mean anything. It doesn't even have anything to do with my position, since I haven't ever said that you delay getting slots.

But given that, it's even harder to keep something in something you no longer have.

J

 

[Scion]

but since nothing took it away you still have it.

 

[drnuncheon]

but since nothing took it away you still have it.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[Scion]

Just like if you lose your job, you still have all of the money you had saved.

You wish your way to be the only interpretation, it isnt. Just because you feel like dismissing any others, and without cause so far, does not make you right. My logic is fine, the conclusions well within the raw. Find something to disprove it and come back then.

 

[pyk]

Just like if you lose your job, you still have all of the money you had saved.

You wish your way to be the only interpretation, it isnt. Just because you feel like dismissing any others, and without cause so far, does not make you right. My logic is fine, the conclusions well within the raw. Find something to disprove it and come back then.

Except, the logic you are applying is that when one's job is lost, one may still go to work at the same job.

The fact that the mage armor spell cast the previous round before losing one's Int is still active is the equation of losing one's job == not losing saved money.

 

[Scion]

nope, only if you get your job back the next day (ie getting your stat points back)

welcome back pyk, although I am still hopeing that someday you will not misuse my statements, especially while trying to set up your strawmen.

Logic is an important tool, perhaps you should take some courses in it at your local college? It is well worth it.

 

[pyk]

nope, only if you get your job back the next day (ie getting your stat points back)

welcome back pyk, although I am still hopeing that someday you will not misuse my statements, especially while trying to set up your strawmen.

Logic is an important tool, perhaps you should take some courses in it at your local college? It is well worth it.

The only person here misusing your statements is yourself. You've gone and contradicted yourself many times. Here's just one, but definately a glaring one:

It changes your modifier and the amount of bonus spells you get in a day 'if you were prepareing right now'. The quotes above tell how and when this sort of thing happens, and it is after resting, during the preperation time. You do not gain them at any other time, so why should you lose them at any other time? No reason except for whatever you feel like imposing on the ruleset yourself.

You only lose prepared spells from A) casting them, B) chooseing to forgo the spell, C) some special effect that states that you lose a spell slot. That is pretty direct from the quote I have made. If you rest for the night, and on the basis of your level and stat have X amount of spells, and you have X prepared then at that point you decide whether to drop any and replace them with another spell or an empty slot to be filled later. Again, where is the logical leap? It is all right there in the book! Those are the requirements that it lays out.

So, which is it? Does one lose spells if the stat goes down, and the character has rested, or does one keep the prepared spells indefinitely whether or not the stat ever changes? You can't even get this part right, so why should we not question the rest?

As far as part "C" goes, it quite explicitly states that stat damage, or the stat being reduced from prior levels, changes the number of bonus spells the character may cast in the attributes chart. All one has to do to find out how many spells are applicable to any caster at the moment is look at that chart, read the amount if stat on the left, and read across to find out how many spells the player is supposed to have. It's real easy, you should try it sometime.

No where does it state in that chart, or anywhere in the class description, or in the magic section, that a character, say a wizard, with 'X' Intelligence, is allowed to have "Y" bonus spells. As a matter of fact, it specifically states: "A wizard's bonus spells are based on Intelligence."

Notice the present tense, and the specific lack of mentioning this only occurs at rest period. Also note, the writers of the book are very careful to have any mention of bonus spells be seperated from the class level spells.

If it isnt written then it isnt a rule.

You wish, however, to make a rule that states "A wizard's spells are not lost when the stat goes down."

Yet, everywhere this is shown to be illogical assumption of the RAW. It is specifically stated that the bonus spells are lost if the stat goes down. In the attribute bonus chart. In the section blurb on stat changes. You just choose to ignore this. You can pick and choose what sections are relevent for you all you want, no one is stopping you.

the rules do state when you gain the spells, and how to lose them. but no where does anything support your claim of them being lost immediately.

The rules state, and those that you were quoting, when one gains spells that were "cast the day before" or if one chooses to "replace" an existing, prepared spell. The rules do not state what to do with spells that are aquired without having been "having been cast."

The only actual reference to this, is the FAQ quote that you choose to be irrelevent, as you do not want to admit the part about losing spell slots when the stat drops immediately. Therefore, if one does not lose spell slots immediately from a stat decrease (as the rules do not state it) then if one puts on a Ring of Wizardry (whatever level) then the slots are available immediately.

Quote the passage that states emphatically that the Ring of Wizardry does not work this way.

 

[Scion]

The only person here misusing your statements is yourself. You've gone and contradicted yourself many times. Here's just one, but definately a glaring one:

Hmm.. lets see.. neither of those passages contradict one another in any way. Read them again. Pay attention to the words. There is nothing contradictory in them. I am trying to not get insulting, but really, if you are going to post about something, claim it is contradictory, and then say that is why I am wrong at least post something where your statement is true. At some point your strawmen arguements are going to make me stop treating you civily.

As far as part "C" goes, it quite explicitly states that stat damage, or the stat being reduced from prior levels, changes the number of bonus spells the character may cast in the attributes chart.

Which, again, has no bearing. The spells were prepared earlier, the amount you would get 'right now' if you rested 'right now' (and thereby have entotal, assuming that your current amount didnt already match or exceed it. Remember that whole reading thing, you even quoted the posts where I said this! think about what things mean, it will help you in the future.)

All one has to do to find out how many spells are applicable to any caster at the moment is look at that chart, read the amount if stat on the left, and read across to find out how many spells the player is supposed to have. It's real easy, you should try it sometime.

Supposed to have, if they rested right now, or at this moment. Good thing they arent.

No where does it state that you lose those spells, that part you are simply making up whole cloth. Until you find your mystical grail, that so far doesnt exist, your entire arguement is based on an assumption that you cannot prove true.

No where does it state in that chart, or anywhere in the class description, or in the magic section, that a character, say a wizard, with 'X' Intelligence, is allowed to have "Y" bonus spells. As a matter of fact, it specifically states: "A wizard's bonus spells are based on Intelligence."

Again, no bearing. At the time of preperation he got his spells, which were based on level and stat. Fine, done. That is what the books say.

Now you are trying to come in after the fact, place rules in the books that dont exist, make assumptions off of your virtual rules, and then claim you are correct and your way is the only one-true-way. It doesnt work like that, sorry. Find a rule that proves what you say is true, otherwise you are just making unfounded assumptions. That is a Bad Thing (tm).

Yet, everywhere this is shown to be illogical assumption of the RAW.

Everywhere? if by that you mean 'nowhere', then sure. If anything the way you are touting is much more illogical because of the rules problems it creates and the bookeeping it requires (which has generally been kept to a minimum as much as possible). Therefore the way I have said is the more logical approach, as it is more balanced and easier, along with going straight by the core.

It is specifically stated that the bonus spells are lost if the stat goes down. In the attribute bonus chart.

Ahh.. making up rules again. If you are going to keep doing this then why are you in the rules forum? there is already a forum for you.

In the section blurb on stat changes. You just choose to ignore this. You can pick and choose what sections are relevent for you all you want, no one is stopping you.

Except it doesnt say what you are trying to extrapolate it to. Just because you want it to say something really hard doesnt make it change. It still doesnt say what you are saying it says.

The rules state, and those that you were quoting, when one gains spells that were "cast the day before" or if one chooses to "replace" an existing, prepared spell. The rules do not state what to do with spells that are aquired without having been "having been cast."

You need to make this statement a bit clearer, I think you have a point in there somewhere, but it is being blocked by poor word useage. That or you are just confused, either way though. No one here is disputing the fact that if your stat is high enough to gain bonus spells, at the time you are fully rested, that you get those bonus spells. So if you would be kind enough to clear your thought up a bit perhaps I could respond better.

The only actual reference to this, is the FAQ quote that you choose to be irrelevent, as you do not want to admit the part about losing spell slots when the stat drops immediately.

You must be talking about the one with the items that grant enhancements, and the specific ruling that when you take it off you lose the spells it granted. Great, another exception in an item that is already riddled with them. It does not say in general, nor does it even word it as such. It says that is what happens for that one item.

Quote the passage that states emphatically that the Ring of Wizardry does not work this way.

Like the one I quoted above? all right, see above.