Enlarge and Reduce question

[ruleslawyer]

Question is...

What level do you think a spell that raises/lowers the target's size category one level, with all concomitant benefits and disadvantages, for one minute per level should be?

 

[Caliban]

Re: Question is...

What level do you think a spell that raises/lowers the target's size category one level, with all concomitant benefits and disadvantages, for one minute per level should be?

I would say about 4th level.

Call it Alter Size and allow it to either increase or decrease a target's size by one category. It's basically a varient of Polymorph Other.

Say it only affects willing subjects and I could see it as a 3rd level spell.

 

[KarinsDad]

This is not true. Mass increases by a cube function, but strength only increases by a square function. Hence doubling height does make a creature x8 as massive, but naturally it should be only x4 as strong. (Hence the real-life phenomena of apparently super-string ants and big fat whales that couldn't possibly be mobile on land even if they had legs.)

I figured x8 was incorrect, but knew if I posted it that someone would correct me. Thanks.

So, the square function of strength increase (presumably due to the square increase of muscle attachment to bone surface area) would result in a x4 increase in strength at double the size.

Hence, my compromise of x4 Strength for 100% increase in size would correspond to +10 Strength for 100%. Or +1 per 10%.

This to me would make at least Enlarge useful and it would correspond to real world physics.

Let's say you increase a (Str12) human's height by x2, increasing the size category. Then, they should be 12 ft., about 1,600 pounds, and x4 as strong. Add the averaged category strength increase (per my linked website, above) of +5. Then modify by the "large" lifting modifier which you mention (doubling it). End result: their lifting capacity is indeed x4 what it was to begin with, in compliance with normal physics.

The problem with this is that the "large" lifting modifier rule is only there because of the magical nature of DND. The designers looked at it and said, "Hey, it doesn't make sense that a giant can only lift this many pounds", so they put in an additional increase.

In real life, there are no 12 foot tall humanoids. Even 9 foot tall ones develop severe back and joint problems.

But, in a magical world, the designers wanted the large magical creatures to not be wimps when it came to lifting capacity.

In reality, you should have no such large lifting capacity rule. It should absolutely not exist in the rules.

If you want stronger large humanoids, you should make them stronger. Period. A doubled sized human should have four times the lifting capacity because his Strength is increased by 10.

This is a lousy reason to set up the spell as +1 per 20%. Another lousy reason is that even with the large lift capacity rule, it does not apply to this spell. Hence, the spell is way underpowered since it is half powered plus it can never apply that rule.

And, knowing that a medium encumbered human is suddenly unable to move due to his enlarged equipment should have been a clue to the designers that no, the spell does not increase the strength enough.

Quite frankly, they dropped the ball on this one. IMO.

 

[dcollins]

In reality, you should have no such large lifting capacity rule. It should absolutely not exist in the rules.

Not terrible points, but I'm not sure I'm convinced by this one. The Strength ability is primarily used to measure how hard someone hits something -- lifting capacity can be a function thereof, but not primarily what it's measuring.

At any rate, the counterpoint to desiring that enlarge grant +1 Str per 10% size is that, at 5th caster level, it would make useless the 2nd-level spell bull's strength, which grants at most +5 on the best roll. (Granting generally that the size AC/attack modifiers -- which shouldn't even kick in at +50% size -- are not really significant.) But, I would expect that you've already considered that.

 

[KarinsDad]

At any rate, the counterpoint to desiring that enlarge grant +1 Str per 10% size is that, at 5th caster level, it would make useless the 2nd-level spell bull's strength, which grants at most +5 on the best roll. (Granting generally that the size AC/attack modifiers -- which shouldn't even kick in at +50% size -- are not really significant.) But, I would expect that you've already considered that.

Four reasons why I totally disagree with this:

1) Enlarge is an enlargement bonus. Bull's Strength is an enhancement bonus. So, they stack and it cannot make the other spell useless.

2) Enlarge lasts one minute per level. Bull's Strength lasts one hour per level. Hence, Bull's Strength is generally superior overall, regardless of the roll.

3) Enlarge increases your size by some percentage. Hence, if you are 50% increased for example, a lot of opponents would notice this and hence, they might attack or avoid you accordingly. In other words, it's tough to hide your increased strength.

4) Enlarge increases the mass of your equipment by 170% for a 40% increase in height and 30% increase in Strength. Hence, increasing Strength by 75% instead is not too far out of the ballpark since in a lot of cases, this will increase the load a category (e.g. light to medium). In other words, even at +1 per 10%, there is a detriment to being Enlarged.

I really think that a worthwhile Enlarge spell will do nothing to the utility of a Bull's Strength spell.

 

[Caliban]

Yeah, but being able to increase the fighter's strength by up to 10 points with a couple of low level spells might be pushing things. I don't even want to imaging a raging half-orc barbarian with that combination. Up to a 35 strength at 5th level?

If that were the case, then I think that everyone who could, would carry those spells. I certainly would be tempted to add 5 levels of wizard onto my fighter and pick up the Still Spell feat just to cast Stilled versions of those.)

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, but being able to increase the fighter's strength by up to 10 points with a couple of low level spells might be pushing things. (As in: absolutely everyone who could, would carry those spells. I certainly would be tempted to add 3 levels of wizard onto my fighter just to cast those.)

As opposed to the +7 that can already occur?

An odd Strength Fighter can gain +4/+4 right now. Upping it to +5/+5 does not seem that overwhelming.

As for adding 3 levels of Wizard to a Fighter, you would have to add 5 levels. And, I guess he would be in extremely light armor.

The point is that the Enlarge today could result in a Fighter gaining 2 points of Strength, but having his armor weigh so much that he cannot even move.

That really makes zero sense.

 

[Caliban]

I'm not saying that they didn't do a bad job on converting the spell. I agree that they did.

I'm just not in favor of increasing the power of the spell and still keeping it first level. I think it's power level is appropriate for a first level spell, as long as you ignore the increased weight of their equipment (because if you don't ignore that, it's nearly useless).

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm just not in favor of increasing the power of the spell and still keeping it first level. I think it's power level is appropriate for a first level spell, as long as you ignore the increased weight of their equipment (because if you don't ignore that, it's nearly useless).

That's the problem though, isn't it?

If you play the spell as written, it is not only wimpy, it actually sucks.

If you change the spell to +1 per 10% to make it equate somewhat to real world physics, you have to keep the increased weight of equipment portion and use the increased size to make good NPC decisions in combat or you make it potentially too powerful.

Btw, I had the +1 per 10% house rule since DND 3E first came out. In fact, this was my very first house rule.

Not a single Wizard PC in 1 1/2 years of gaming ever took the spell. Not once. Oh well. No matter how much we discuss this stuff, it sometimes still does not come into play.