Enlarge and Reduce question

[Willtell]

Can I assume that since enlarge does not enlarge the target of the spell, the spell "reduce" would not lower the size of a creature. For example does a reduced troll still have reach?.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Enlarge can increase the size of a creature, and Reduce can lower it, at least AFAIK. At least the spell descriptions do not preclude it. I would use the chart in the MM on page 5 as a guideline for size changes.

Let's use your example of a troll. The MM says the typical troll is about 9 feet tall and weighs about 500 pounds. A fifth level wizard successfully casts Reduce on the troll. It shrinks to about 4 1/2 feet tall and weighs about 50 pounds. Its size is now Medium-size. It no longer has 10 foot reach. Its strength score drops by 2. You should adjust its natural weapon damage, AC, attack rolls, etc., accordingly.

If someone Enlarges a troll, it enlarges to about 13-14 feet. This is still in the range of Large, not Huge.

 

[Caliban]

No, reducewill not change the size category of a creature and neither will enlarge. The spell description doesn't state that you change size categories, and since that's a game mechanic effect, the spell would have to specify that it affects it.

Besides, that would be to powerful for a 1st level spell. To actually affect a creatures size, it would need to be about 4th level, in my opinion. (Like Righteous Might).

This is a bit of a contradiction, in that you could Enlarge a 6 foot tall person to 9' feet tall, which would normally put them in the large category. This contradiction exists because enlarge and reduce are legacy spells from 1st edition, where changing size didn't affect your stats, armor class, or reach.

 

[KarinsDad]

I hate stupid rules.

And, I disagree that changing a size category for a first level spell is too powerful. It is also dependent on duration.

Plus, a larger creature is also easier to hit. Or inversely, a smaller creature does not hit as hard.

I see no real problem with gaining reach and a little bit of strength while losing AC for a first level spell or losing offense to gain defense. I just wish the designers would have given us better rules with regard to these two spells.

 

[Caliban]

I hate stupid rules.

And, I disagree that changing a size category for a first level spell is too powerful. It is also dependent on duration.

Plus, a larger creature is also easier to hit. Or inversely, a smaller creature does not hit as hard.

I see no real problem with gaining reach and a little bit of strength while losing AC for a first level spell or losing offense to gain defense. I just wish the designers would have given us better rules with regard to these two spells.

You only get what the spell specifies you get. The spell doesn't specify a change in size category. The spell does specifically state that it doesn't affect your AC. If it did change your size category, it would affect your AC.

Also, page 42 of the D&D FAQ has this to say:

If a dragon casts enlarge on itself and it grows enough to
qualify for the next size category, does it get the damage
ratings for that size? What about other dragon powers?

An enlarge spell cast on a dragon works like an enlarge spell cast on any other creature. The dragon gets a +1 bonus to Strength for every 20% of enlargement. It gets no other benefits from the spell.

 

[KarinsDad]

You only get what the spell specifies you get. The spell doesn't specify a change in size category. The spell does specifically state that it doesn't affect your AC. If it did change your size category, it would affect your AC.
[/i]

I do not disagree with what you stated. You are correct in your interpretation.

I just think it is dumb.

Alter Self as a second level transmutation spell can allow you to fly or even breathe underwater, but Enlarge does virtually nothing until the spell caster is 4th level and then it give +1 to hit and +1 damage. And that is all it does for an entire one minute per level (compared to the useful Alter Self at 10 minutes per level).

To me, this is a waste. Not only because the spell is so wimpy, but also because a creature that has long enough arms SHOULD get reach. IMO.

Reach should be a function of creature/appendage size, not a function of the description of a spell.

In fact, Enlarge should increase base Speed and Reduce should decrease it. If you are 50% taller, you should also move 50% faster.

But, like size, movement is a big disappointment in 3E.

The Ancient Red Dragon takes a 5 foot step.

Yawn.

 

[Caliban]

I agree with you on several points. Logically, you should get AC and reach modifiers as you grow in size.

I think they made a mistake at keeping them as first level spells. They should have made them higher level, and stated that they always grant a size category change.

Or they should have been much more clear about the nature of the enlargement, possibly defining it as a general increase/decrease in bodymass, instead of also specifying a height increase.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

After thinking about my original post, I was going to re-post a withdrawal.

Caliban is correct.

I do think that it should work in some manner as I originally described, however. The notion that you can reduce a troll to 4 1/2 feet tall and he still gets 10 foot reach is silly. Oh well, I guess "it's magic."

I believe I may have to rule 0 these spells.

 

[rootbeergnome]

I once had a friend who i played 2ed ADnD with, who was always talking about the most powerful 1st level spells. He proved the worth of Enlarge/Reduce (enlarge/shrink then I think) time and time again. He would use reduce to shrink a locked door, causing enough space at the edges of the door so that it could be easily opened, and once, under a very lax DM he even shrunk a wall of a temple causing it to fall on some ogres. I know these examples are a little powerful and should probably not be allowed by most DMs, but if the low power of this 1st level spell(s) bothers you, then allow your players to use it more creatively. Let them shrink a set of bars in a window, allowing them to escape capture or a trap, or whatever you decide to allow! Encourage creativity and your players will surely surprise and amaze you!

 

[KarinsDad]

I once had a friend who i played 2ed ADnD with, who was always talking about the most powerful 1st level spells. He proved the worth of Enlarge/Reduce (enlarge/shrink then I think) time and time again. He would use reduce to shrink a locked door, causing enough space at the edges of the door so that it could be easily opened, and once, under a very lax DM he even shrunk a wall of a temple causing it to fall on some ogres. I know these examples are a little powerful and should probably not be allowed by most DMs, but if the low power of this 1st level spell(s) bothers you, then allow your players to use it more creatively. Let them shrink a set of bars in a window, allowing them to escape capture or a trap, or whatever you decide to allow! Encourage creativity and your players will surely surprise and amaze you!

I do not disagree with you.

I was once a low level Mage in a 2E campaign where we had a very large dungeon that was virtually empty. After checking for traps for the umpteenth time, we finally got frustrated and decided to just walk through the place. Suddenly we were walking down a corridor when two walls dropped in place, sealing off 2/3rds of the party from the others. Gas started pouring in. The DM said that we each had a round to act before the gas knocked us out. Nobody else was capable of doing anything constructive. My Mage cast Reduce on the wall between us and the rest of the party before passing out. The other PCs were able to back away, wait for the gas to dissipate, and then rescue us.

So, the spells can be useful. However, their utility is extremely limited, hence, most Wizards would rarely take them. If they had some real combat utility, at least they would get taken more often. Reducing the troll so that it no longer has reach and does less damage WOULD be useful if the designers had only put more effort into this area.