[ENnies] Categories

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
Winners would be selected by the highest score per vote - an AVERAGE - NOT the "popular" vote. (The popular vote could still be captured/tabulated of course...).

If the voter is not familiar with a product in a given category, A "don't know" vote would not hurt the nominees chances of winning, as the "don't know" votes would not be included in determining the average score.

Sort of a neat idea, but it could lead to an odd situation where a product wins with a 4.5 average based on 50 total votes and another product loses with a 4.4 average based on 1,000 total votes. That sort of result can be spun in too many directions. Especially in a peoples choice award, you don't really want an accusation of a "tyranny of the minority". If you open yourself up to that accusation you might as well just go with a panel of expert or celebrity judges.

I suppose a minumum number of non-"I don't know" votes would be necessary to be eligible to win. But I don't know how one could decide where to draw that line. A percentage of the total votes? An arbitrary firm line? A percentage is going to actually favor the big names because virtually every voter will be familiar with the WotC product so with every vote the cutoff line raises, but one product or another will fall a bit further behind. How far behind should they be allowed to fall before they are disqualified?

Morrus obviously has a better notion of how many total voters to expect, so a firm line might actually be the best way to go -- but if voting spikes up or dips down then the line might have to be shifted at the last minute and that undermines the credibility of the process.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Morrus said:
At the ceremony, the nominees are "counted down" from #5 to #1. Only #1 actually gets an award, but everyone finds out what order they are are all in. That way, a company could choose to say "Hey, cool, we came second!" or not, as they see fit.

With that in mind, we could also disclose the %ages at the same time -- "In 5th place with 6% of the vote was XXXX; in 4th place with 12% of the vote was YYYYYY; ..... and the winner, with 40% of the vote is ZZZZZ".
I like it. Unfortunately, for me, I'm probably not going to be able to make GenCon. :(
 

What exactly is the point of the "I don't know"-vote?

I'm not sure that I understand the point of including an "i don't know" button. After all,
last year it was possible to abstain in categories
that you didn't know enough about the nomonees.
Isn't that the same as voting "I don't know"?

Second I don't think a lot is won by requiring
the voters to know at least three of the five nominees. Because then every voter will know the
WOTC product and two other random products. This will still be a huge advantage to the WOTC product.
 

Re: What exactly is the point of the "I don't know"-vote?

Sebastian said:
Second I don't think a lot is won by requiring
the voters to know at least three of the five nominees. Because then every voter will know the
WOTC product and two other random products. This will still be a huge advantage to the WOTC product.

Absolutely. There's an assumption on everyone's part, I think, that no matter what you do, short of barring them from the race, WotC has an advantage. And the will of the majority of those people who've spoken up on these boards is that that's just fine. The point is to diffuse that advantage.

Let's say last year 100 people voted (I know this number is too low, but it makes percentages easy). Of that 100, 60 were EN World members and 40 were people routed to EN World by company websites. Of those 40 people, likely 3/4ths were from wizards.com. So, if you buy my numbers (which are arbitrary, but ther percentages are likely something like realistic), you had 60% "informed EN Worlders," the people you actually want the award to be from, and 40% partisans. And really, 30% of the voters were partisans from WotC in particular. Now, those folks just vote a WotC straight ticket. Which means for anyone else to stand a chance, they need half the "informed EN worlders" and some percentage of their own partisans AND they need none of the ENWorlders to vote for WotC. Those are bad, bad odds and very hard to overcome, no matter how good your product.

Essentially, as it stands, due to the power of WotC name recognition and marketing muscle, everyone else walks in with a huge deficit they have to overcome. I think we can just assume by simple "majority rules, one man one vote (MROMOV)" that WotC probably walks into the contest with about 30% of the vote in any category where it's running. Maybe a bit higher, maybe a bit lower. That's a powerful handicap for the guy who least needs handicapping.

But no one likes the solution of just barring WotC from the running -- and with good reason. Everyone wants the "informed EN Worlders," the people who the award is from, to actually be able to pick a wizards product if they want to.

A weighted voting scheme means that partisans cannot hand their product or company an enormous advantage because they're also being forced to give points to other products. Let's say, for sake of argument, that if the voting were done again on best setting (which I pick as an example not to offend anyone or because I have a horse in that race, but because I know it was a source of controversy):

The wizards.com visitors (30 people) rank OA at #1 and Rokugan at #2. That's 90 points for OA and 60 points for Rokugan. Then a third of the ENworlders (20 people) also ranked OA at #1 and Rokugan at #2, another 60 points for OA and 40 points for Rokugan. By simple MROMOV, OA has it in the bag -- 50 of 100 people have voted for it as #1. But let's suppose (as I think was the case last year) the remaining 2/3rds of ENWorld voters (40 people) don't even think that OA belongs on the list, so they vote Rokugan #1 and something else #2. That's 120 points Rokugan and 0 for OA. Add them up and you have Rokugan with 240 points and OA with 150. How the remaining 10 voters break may decide who's in second and third, but at this point, Rokugan wins -- and it wins because it's on 90% of the ballots, and OA is only on 50% of them.

This is obviously a simplistic model -- the thing about having three weighted votes is that it defies simple modeling, so please forgive what may seem like a straw man argument above, but I have a job and can't really spend all day modeling out a 3 vote race in all its permutations (more importantly, I actually lack the mathematical skill to do it).

But the point remains: a weighted voting scheme allows a product that makes it onto the most lists to beat a product that is loved by a large group of the voters and not thought highly of by another large group of the voters. It does a very good job of expressing the opinions of the mass rather than the simple majority. It also makes it very possible for a product that 55% of the people ranked as #1 to still lose. This is something a lot of people might take issue with. I don't. It can only happen if another large percentage of the voters are really unhappy with the product and don't rank it at all.

Yes, Wizards will still have an advantage. They will still be #1 on a lot of peoples' lists. The will of EN World as expressed on these boards appears to be that people are fine with Wizards having that advantage. The goal is not to destroy it. The goal is to come up with a voting system that does not privilege that advantage to the point that it becomes nearly impossible for anyone else to win.

Hope that makes sense.

Aaron

P.S. The averaging scheme would either have no effect statistically (dividing all the totals by the same number -- the number of people who voted in the category -- just yields a smaller number at the same... gah... my algebra is failing me. Ratio? That's not the word. You know what I'm saying. Where X > Y, if you divide X and Y by 100, X is still greater than Y. I think. Unless I've forgotten everything I learned in high school -- a very real possibility) or would, yet again, privilege the minority (if you divide the total by the number of people who voted for the product, the fewer people who vote for the product, the better off it is.) The weighting system is good because it allows unchampioned products to get into the limelight by being number 2 or 3 on the vast majority of lists rather than #1 on more lists than any other product was #1.

(EDIT: fixed poor wording and typos and hid three easter eggs deep in the text)
 
Last edited:

I like Aaron's ranked votes idea. It would be a bit more of a pain to vote (and code, no doubt), but that's okay with me. Just as long as any Florida-like confusion is avoided. ;)

As for a Judge's Choice Award -- perhaps only give it out if the judges collectively have a favorite? If the majority of judges can decide, "Yeah, the Book of Muskrats is the book", then yeah, give the BoM that award. OTOH, if the five judges come up with six possible Choices, then just don't hand out that award that year.
 

CRGreathouse said:
Eh, I don't really think so. If the auto-calculating character sheet is that great,why shouldn't it beat the paper product?
*chuckles* Market share. ;)

Seriously, look at the category it will likely be in... "Best d20 Supplement." That means it will compete with things like the "Path of..." series or the "Quintessential X" or "The Book of Eldritch Might III." Based on what it does, it would be better suited competing with something like "E-Tools" or "Campaign Suite" or "Jamis Buck's Generators."

The thing is, a truly advanced PDF blurs the line between "book" and "software." Suppose you had a PDF that could randomly generate treasures for you. Does that compete with the DM's Guide and its treasure generation tables? Or a PDF that includes embedded objects... perhaps with the description of "Fireball" you can click on it and it brings up a printable page with a "fireball tile" in living color at the 1 inch = 5 ft scale? Or vice versa - you have a "fireball tile" that you can click on to get the spell effect? How do you compare that to a printed product?

We have just begun to scratch the surface with PDFs. I predict that you will see PDFs become more advanced over the next couple of years - until they resemble books with software "embedded" to do nifty tricks and calculation work for you in strategic locations (e.g., a "DMG" that includes an instant NPC stat block generator in the NPC chapter, extensive cross-references/bookmarks to let you immediately jump to the "exhausted" entry when it is mentioned that a character who is already fatigued and would become fatigued again becomes exhausted, and so forth).

Then, how do you compare the two? It's a lot more difficult because the media will be so wildly different. Perhaps it is not time to make a change yet because PDFs still look like books (mostly) - but it soon will be. I think once we get a publisher who is both java-savvy and a good RPG writer (or a team that accomplishes this), the standards for "what goes into a PDF" will be raised again.

You might even think of the future of PDFs as something resembling "a self-contained website complete with downloads and features, but one which you pay for instead of browsing for free."

I don't know if I'm articulating myself properly here, but hopefully the general idea is getting across.

--The Sigil
 

coyote6 said:
I like Aaron's ranked votes idea.

It does seem to be the best solution I have read thus far. Is there a downside that I'm not seeing that really knocks it out of the box?
 

Okay, seems like lots of debates going on. Last I heard the official name of the awards was:
"Gen Con EN World d20 System Awards"

This implies that any d20 product should be allowed in. As for WotC in or out, people are going to complain either way. I don't see a d20 logo on the WotC modules, supplements, or other material I have. Don't see that logo on Kenzer products either. Those products are not restricted to the SRD, are allowed to use trademark names that d20 publishers can not without permission, etc. Technically, they aren't d20, they are DnD. Small, and perhaps stupid, difference, and probably a poor excuse not to include them.

Should the smaller publishers compete with someone that can use all the trademarks, advertising, tie-ins, etc.? That is a decision for the judges.

Even among the smaller publishers there is a vast difference in size, name recognition, advertising, etc. Where do you draw the line?

If it was me (and it isn't), I would draw the line at the d20 logo. Products following the OGL/SRD would be in, no matter who published them. What about he special licensed d20 products? I guess I would let them in too. Wizard's products with rules info released into the SRD? In, by being released they are essentially d20.

Fairest way to do things? Possibly not, but easiest to use and justify.

Just one more opinion for the mix...
 

D20 Logo on WotC Products

I think you need to look again. I cannot find a single WotC D&D book that doesn't have a D20 logo.

Hint: Look on the back.
 

Yeah, you are right, every WotC book does have one. I wasn't thinking.
There goes that excuse I suppose.

That is what I get for posting while tired and not thinking clearly.

Personally, I would say let 5 judges choose the nominees, and then get different judges to vote on the items. Then you are asking for 10-15 free copies of product X, not terribly fair really.

The most well-known products are simply going to have a huge advantage in an internet popularity poll. You can use all sorts of math and statistics to warp the voting, but that, in my mind, makes it less fair. Products with the widest distribution are going to be the most recognized and likely to be voted in.

I don't see any "fair" way to do the whole thing. I think the nominations are the biggest deal, giving secondary awards (whatever you call them) takes away from the nominations.

WotC, whether included or not, does set a standard that people do use for comparison.

Typing with a 6 month old in your lap is no terribly easy ...
 

Remove ads

Top