ENnies: Publisher feedback and suggestions sought on the future of the ENnies
- Thread starter jaldaen
- Start date
Monte At Home
Explorer
Rasyr said:
Well, kinda. But not exactly. Instead of judges, the OA had anyone in the industry who cared enough to pay 30 bucks vote for all the categories, and then a couple of categories (3, I think) were voted on by the public.
It is true, though, that my idea was probably at least inspired by what I had originally thought the OA were going to do this year when I heard about the change.
Interestingly enough, the grapevine says that the OA next year might be more like the ENnies have been in the past couple of years. Emphasis on the might at this early stage, though.
2WS-Steve
First Post
While I'm sure the ENnies system could, somehow be improved, one thing I'm certain of is that the 5 elected judge system has produced the most consistently worthwhile sets of nominees in any game awards I've seen. Not only are all the nominees top-notch, but they're fresh and innovative. Awards that use other systems have nothing near the track record of introducing me to quality material as the ENnies. When I look at some of the nominees (certainly not all of them, though) in the Origins awards, I am flat out perplexed.
I know that the 5 elected judge system comes under some fire, accusations of star chamber and such. But before dismantling it based on philosophical grounds, let's make sure we have a good, pragmatic reason to prefer something else. Like the U.S. jury system, the ENnies might have problems but they're the best system I've seen so far.
I know that the 5 elected judge system comes under some fire, accusations of star chamber and such. But before dismantling it based on philosophical grounds, let's make sure we have a good, pragmatic reason to prefer something else. Like the U.S. jury system, the ENnies might have problems but they're the best system I've seen so far.
Monte At Home
Explorer
Rasyr said:
Nine, as it turns out. But it's still not the same 1:1, as there were 25 non-public categories.
Yes, I remember your posts.
But the ENnies has a public vote. And that's a good thing.
Monte At Home said:
Yes, for the ENnies, that is a good thing. And I particularly like how they he ENnies are done. Do I think that there could be improvements, yes, but not many.
For example, the specific improvements to the ENnies I would like to see are as follows:
1) Change the timeline -- Moving the elegibility period to end sooner in the year, or to the end of the previous year, so that the judges do not have to kill themselves or take time off work in order to be able read all the products.
2) Include judge summaries -- Have the judges write a summary of the products that could be preused prior to, and/or during the voting period. Thus voters who do not know what a specific product is can get an idea of what it is about.
My prior comments were solely my thoughts on some of the ideas presented in this thread....
How upset would I be if the ENnies did not implement the two improvements I suggested above? Not upset at all. Those are things I would like to see, not things that I "want". For the most part, I think that the ENnies are just fine the way that they are.
I would also be fine with most of the suggestions if they happened to be implemented as well. The only two that I would have a problem with are Fees for entering, and quarterly divisions.
Fees would most certainly knock out a lot of smaller companies from entering, and I would prefer sending the products directly to the judges rather than fees.
Quarterly divisions raise all sorts of other problems, most specifically considering that it can knock some very good products out of the running just because too many come out in the same quarter.
malladin
Explorer
Firstly, I must appologise for coming to this discussion late. I only tuned in after Morrus' rant and have taken all this time just to try and catch up with what's going on.
Okay, I'd like to start by making a few points about the principles of the issue.
Firstly there seems to be a major chicken and egg situation here; publishers feel that the awards are too low profile, whereas the awards need to get bigger publishers involved to develop their profile. From the point of view of principle, surely this is something we all ned to work on. As publishers and fans we need to promote ENWorld and the Ennies to attract more attention to them - its as much our responsibility as it is Morrus'.
Secondly, I think *in principle* the burden of any costs should be with the publisher. I believe this because the benefit (in theory if not in reality) is to the publisher rather than to ENWorld. If publishers only link back to ENWorld when they have a nominated product I think the benefit to ENWorld is much less than it is to the publisher. Even when a publisher links directly through to ENWorld from their homepage (or any community site for that matter) I think its more likely to interest people who already know about ENWorld than to bring new people to ENWorld (having said that, I found out about ENWorld from Mystic Eye's website) and therefore is aw much if not more an advantage tothe publisher still than it is to ENWorld.
I also think that in principle all gamers should be supporting the sites that they make use of, and publishers perhaps even moreso - just by virtue of the fact that sites like these help to generate and maintain an interest in the hobby that we all need to keep selling books.
Another point - maybe this is just me being too small a publisher to matter, but if we were really in this for the money, surely we'd be looking to be the next Bob Salvatore, not the next Gary Gygax?!? RPG publishing is never going to make anyone rich, so why do we do it? Surely it must be for the love of the hobby, which is what the Ennies, and Enworld, support.
Now onto some practical matters of how to make the Ennies more viable. One thing thats clear from this discussion is that there is a problem with the Ennies' viability. Therefore we need to do something to make them start paying for themselves. As with anything in business there are always two ways to make something become more financially viable; to make them generate more money and to make them cost less.
Firstly, then, there are issues of income. Generating money by having some sort of auction seems an idea worthy of some merit, but this would mean unguaranteed income. Surely the community would be better served with perhaps a give away to encourage people to join in the voting process, thus helping to enthuse more people in the longterm future of the Ennies and, through them, ENworld.
So then, what about cutting down the costs. The big costs, and the biggest gripe over who is responsible for them, seems to be the shipping. So how can we cut this down? Id say have less judges for a start. Shipping 6 copies as was requested for this year's awards (although I was stupid enough to not read the instructions prioperly and so only send one - doh!) is (obviously) twice as expensive as shipping three. I also think that (possibly - I don't know as I've not had the pleasure of doing this yet) shipping throughout the year at the time of publication would help to lessen some such costs. Shipping electronically is another way to cut costs significantly.
This leads me to a new approach I've thought up. Perhaps the publisher could ship the electronic copy to the judges as they send it to the printers, then the juding pannel could review at that point and say whether it was worthy of shortlisting or not, that way publsihers could even put an 'Ennie Shortlisted' logo at the time of release. Then as the anual awards approach the shortlisted products (may be 10 to 15 in each category) could either be directly voted upon or narrowed down further into 'nominations' by the judges. If having the physical products is a necesity over an electronic form, perhaps the shortlisted candidates could be asked to ship their shortlisted books, that way people aren't shipping with little hope of an award, or if there are a good number of strong contenders in the category they could choose to simply cut their losses and not bother. I also think that announcing monthoy, weekly or even as they are released what products have been shortlisted it would bring a great benefit to both the publisher, and to ENWorld as people log in to get the latest news. Could this also be a benefit to ENWorld if the shortlisted product were accompanied by a short review posted on the front page..?
Anyway, thats about all I've got to say for now. I have a small child who is getting rather bored at me typing this up and has just started platying with my mouse! Time for some daddy-playtime methinks!
Cheerio,
Ben, Malladin's Gate Press
Okay, I'd like to start by making a few points about the principles of the issue.
Firstly there seems to be a major chicken and egg situation here; publishers feel that the awards are too low profile, whereas the awards need to get bigger publishers involved to develop their profile. From the point of view of principle, surely this is something we all ned to work on. As publishers and fans we need to promote ENWorld and the Ennies to attract more attention to them - its as much our responsibility as it is Morrus'.
Secondly, I think *in principle* the burden of any costs should be with the publisher. I believe this because the benefit (in theory if not in reality) is to the publisher rather than to ENWorld. If publishers only link back to ENWorld when they have a nominated product I think the benefit to ENWorld is much less than it is to the publisher. Even when a publisher links directly through to ENWorld from their homepage (or any community site for that matter) I think its more likely to interest people who already know about ENWorld than to bring new people to ENWorld (having said that, I found out about ENWorld from Mystic Eye's website) and therefore is aw much if not more an advantage tothe publisher still than it is to ENWorld.
I also think that in principle all gamers should be supporting the sites that they make use of, and publishers perhaps even moreso - just by virtue of the fact that sites like these help to generate and maintain an interest in the hobby that we all need to keep selling books.
Another point - maybe this is just me being too small a publisher to matter, but if we were really in this for the money, surely we'd be looking to be the next Bob Salvatore, not the next Gary Gygax?!? RPG publishing is never going to make anyone rich, so why do we do it? Surely it must be for the love of the hobby, which is what the Ennies, and Enworld, support.
Now onto some practical matters of how to make the Ennies more viable. One thing thats clear from this discussion is that there is a problem with the Ennies' viability. Therefore we need to do something to make them start paying for themselves. As with anything in business there are always two ways to make something become more financially viable; to make them generate more money and to make them cost less.
Firstly, then, there are issues of income. Generating money by having some sort of auction seems an idea worthy of some merit, but this would mean unguaranteed income. Surely the community would be better served with perhaps a give away to encourage people to join in the voting process, thus helping to enthuse more people in the longterm future of the Ennies and, through them, ENworld.
So then, what about cutting down the costs. The big costs, and the biggest gripe over who is responsible for them, seems to be the shipping. So how can we cut this down? Id say have less judges for a start. Shipping 6 copies as was requested for this year's awards (although I was stupid enough to not read the instructions prioperly and so only send one - doh!) is (obviously) twice as expensive as shipping three. I also think that (possibly - I don't know as I've not had the pleasure of doing this yet) shipping throughout the year at the time of publication would help to lessen some such costs. Shipping electronically is another way to cut costs significantly.
This leads me to a new approach I've thought up. Perhaps the publisher could ship the electronic copy to the judges as they send it to the printers, then the juding pannel could review at that point and say whether it was worthy of shortlisting or not, that way publsihers could even put an 'Ennie Shortlisted' logo at the time of release. Then as the anual awards approach the shortlisted products (may be 10 to 15 in each category) could either be directly voted upon or narrowed down further into 'nominations' by the judges. If having the physical products is a necesity over an electronic form, perhaps the shortlisted candidates could be asked to ship their shortlisted books, that way people aren't shipping with little hope of an award, or if there are a good number of strong contenders in the category they could choose to simply cut their losses and not bother. I also think that announcing monthoy, weekly or even as they are released what products have been shortlisted it would bring a great benefit to both the publisher, and to ENWorld as people log in to get the latest news. Could this also be a benefit to ENWorld if the shortlisted product were accompanied by a short review posted on the front page..?
Anyway, thats about all I've got to say for now. I have a small child who is getting rather bored at me typing this up and has just started platying with my mouse! Time for some daddy-playtime methinks!
Cheerio,
Ben, Malladin's Gate Press
Mercule
Adventurer
I'm not a GenCon attendee. Maybe I will be someday, but I haven't yet. ENWorld is a huge well of information about games/gaming for me. What's that let me add to the discussion? Well, how about ways the ENnies winners/nominees could be tied more closely with ENWorld?
What about having an EN World store (if one exists, the fact that a regular user like me doesn't know about it may mean something)? That store could feature all products nominated for the ENnies, with an emphasis on the winners. That ties it in quite nicely to the web site -- and may translate to higher sales for the nominated/winning publishers. Of course, as the outlet, EN World should get a cut, which shows the value to EN World.
If you really want to push this, add in an earlier schedule for the ENnies selections. Post the nominees a month+ before GenCon, so the "general public" has time to actually purchase and read some of the less known products before voting. Give people two to three weeks notice before the vote, then let them vote. Now, they've got a chance to be an informed voter. I didn't vote this year because I didn't recognize 80%+ of the titles -- doesn't mean I wouldn't, just that I hadn't.
That said, I haven't the foggiest idea of what the difficulty or expense of doing this would be. It might be totally prohibitive, or not.
There's also the chance that it could backfire and make the ENnies (and EN World) look "corporate" or "money-gouging". Well, from what I'm hearing (sorry if I'm off base or out of line, Russ), it sounds like the site has gotten big enough that just the infrastructure needed to keep it running at current capability is pretty costly. Something's going to have to happen to not just cut costs, but generate revenue or there may not be an EN World in another year or two. IMO, that's nothing to be bashful about -- if you can pull it off, that means you're providing a useful service and you should be compensated for it. The choices are either to go the American public television route and have a 'donor drive' every year, or to look at it as a business endeavor (even if it's a non-profit business). The ENnies are a major point where this site and the publishers meet. I'd think there's something there that would be able to be turned into a win-win.
What about having an EN World store (if one exists, the fact that a regular user like me doesn't know about it may mean something)? That store could feature all products nominated for the ENnies, with an emphasis on the winners. That ties it in quite nicely to the web site -- and may translate to higher sales for the nominated/winning publishers. Of course, as the outlet, EN World should get a cut, which shows the value to EN World.
If you really want to push this, add in an earlier schedule for the ENnies selections. Post the nominees a month+ before GenCon, so the "general public" has time to actually purchase and read some of the less known products before voting. Give people two to three weeks notice before the vote, then let them vote. Now, they've got a chance to be an informed voter. I didn't vote this year because I didn't recognize 80%+ of the titles -- doesn't mean I wouldn't, just that I hadn't.
That said, I haven't the foggiest idea of what the difficulty or expense of doing this would be. It might be totally prohibitive, or not.
There's also the chance that it could backfire and make the ENnies (and EN World) look "corporate" or "money-gouging". Well, from what I'm hearing (sorry if I'm off base or out of line, Russ), it sounds like the site has gotten big enough that just the infrastructure needed to keep it running at current capability is pretty costly. Something's going to have to happen to not just cut costs, but generate revenue or there may not be an EN World in another year or two. IMO, that's nothing to be bashful about -- if you can pull it off, that means you're providing a useful service and you should be compensated for it. The choices are either to go the American public television route and have a 'donor drive' every year, or to look at it as a business endeavor (even if it's a non-profit business). The ENnies are a major point where this site and the publishers meet. I'd think there's something there that would be able to be turned into a win-win.
Jim Butler
Explorer
Once more unto the breach here I guess...
The ENnies seem to have two big hurdles in front of them. They need to:
1.) Fund Themselves: ENWorld can't keep footing the bill to run the awards. If the awards are to survive, they have to find a way to cover their expenses. Depending upon the kindness of other companies to make the awards happen is just a recipe for disaster and disappointment.
One option to fund the awards would be for ENWorld to set up an Academy of sorts. Gamers from all over the world would join the ENnies (like the Academy of Adventure Games Art & Design; check out www.aagad.org) and pay a yearly fee to be involved in the process of selecting the products that move to the public voting rounds. The monies collected from the members of the organization would pay for the trophies and some level of marketing the awards.
2.) Be Made Relevant: Whether you go with my previous suggestion of quarterly awards or come up with something else, there's an opportunity here to make the awards truly mean something to the industry at large. RPGs are some of the most expensive and slow moving products that a store carries on a turns-per-square-foot basis, and anything to drive sales will get the attention of the distributors, retailers, and publishers (as well as the gaming public at large). The awards need to be so good that everyone wants to win one and everyone strives to win one.
These are monumental tasks to be sure. The Origins Awards have collapsed, and there's no guarantee that GAMA will reinstate them (that's another matter, but it does create a great opportunity for the ENnies to secure their location as the People's Choice version of gaming awards).
The ENnies seem to have two big hurdles in front of them. They need to:
1.) Fund Themselves: ENWorld can't keep footing the bill to run the awards. If the awards are to survive, they have to find a way to cover their expenses. Depending upon the kindness of other companies to make the awards happen is just a recipe for disaster and disappointment.
One option to fund the awards would be for ENWorld to set up an Academy of sorts. Gamers from all over the world would join the ENnies (like the Academy of Adventure Games Art & Design; check out www.aagad.org) and pay a yearly fee to be involved in the process of selecting the products that move to the public voting rounds. The monies collected from the members of the organization would pay for the trophies and some level of marketing the awards.
2.) Be Made Relevant: Whether you go with my previous suggestion of quarterly awards or come up with something else, there's an opportunity here to make the awards truly mean something to the industry at large. RPGs are some of the most expensive and slow moving products that a store carries on a turns-per-square-foot basis, and anything to drive sales will get the attention of the distributors, retailers, and publishers (as well as the gaming public at large). The awards need to be so good that everyone wants to win one and everyone strives to win one.
These are monumental tasks to be sure. The Origins Awards have collapsed, and there's no guarantee that GAMA will reinstate them (that's another matter, but it does create a great opportunity for the ENnies to secure their location as the People's Choice version of gaming awards).
