Entangle - A Little Too Strong For A 1st Level Spell?

[irdeggman]

BTW, I'm going to be doing a cold-based adventure soon. Do you feel that the environmental effects are reasonable? Are they balanced and fun? (The question is entirely outside of the thread's current topic. I'm not trying to pull some kind of "gotcha".)

I played in a 2nd ed ice world game (highly dependent on cold temperatures).

It was very fun. The Frostburn rules are pretty good, IMO.

But (sort of back to the topic) - watch out for those situational spells or things will become overpowering

 

[Nail]

But (sort of back to the topic) - watch out for those situational spells or things will become overpowering

(Thanks. )

Dragging this back to topic:
If the situation were one that came up often in combat, I might be more convinced. The spell Endure Elements can indeed prevent a bunch of environmental damage...but when is that useful? It's useful when the adventure is in harsh conditions. But are harsh conditions "a challenge"?

D&D has a very effective way of determining challenges: XP. So lets; use that as a test, shall we?

If a PC uses Endure Elements to defeat harsh conditions, do you give him XP? Each time he defeats harsh conditions?

If a PC uses Entangle to defeat a squad of orcs, do you give him XP? Each time he defeats the squad of orcs?




Pretty simple, really.

The limited situations in which Entangle is useful does NOT determine what spell level it is. How powerful it is relative to other spells is a far better measure. And with that measure, it's clear Entangle is not a 1st level spell. It's too powerful.

 

[Mistwell]

(Thanks. )

Dragging this back to topic:
If the situation were one that came up often in combat, I might be more convinced. The spell Endure Elements can indeed prevent a bunch of environmental damage...but when is that useful? It's useful when the adventure is in harsh conditions. But are harsh conditions "a challenge"?

D&D has a very effective way of determining challenges: XP. So lets; use that as a test, shall we?

If a PC uses Endure Elements to defeat harsh conditions, do you give him XP? Each time he defeats harsh conditions?

If a PC uses Entangle to defeat a squad of orcs, do you give him XP? Each time he defeats the squad of orcs?




Pretty simple, really.

The limited situations in which Entangle is useful does NOT determine what spell level it is. How powerful it is relative to other spells is a far better measure. And with that measure, it's clear Entangle is not a 1st level spell. It's too powerful.

I disagree. If entangle were only useful in only in extreme cold, outdoors, on a full moon, near the ocean, with low humidity, I doubt you would still be saying it is just as powerful as it is right now.

Or, a better example, if I house-ruled that entangle is usable even without plants, in any environment at all including in mid-air or rock or metal or whatever, would you say that was an increase in the power of the spell? Or is the spell exactly as powerful as it was before the house rule?

It really is the frequency of the environment that is relevant here. Denying that the frequency of the enivornment plays a role in the power of the spell doesn't seem productive. Most people recognize that a spell that is almost never useable is less powerful than a spell that is always useable.

 

[irdeggman]

(Thanks. )

Dragging this back to topic:
If the situation were one that came up often in combat, I might be more convinced. The spell Endure Elements can indeed prevent a bunch of environmental damage...but when is that useful? It's useful when the adventure is in harsh conditions. But are harsh conditions "a challenge"?

D&D has a very effective way of determining challenges: XP. So lets; use that as a test, shall we?

If a PC uses Endure Elements to defeat harsh conditions, do you give him XP? Each time he defeats harsh conditions?

If a PC uses Entangle to defeat a squad of orcs, do you give him XP? Each time he defeats the squad of orcs?




Pretty simple, really.

The limited situations in which Entangle is useful does NOT determine what spell level it is. How powerful it is relative to other spells is a far better measure. And with that measure, it's clear Entangle is not a 1st level spell. It's too powerful.

Bad example really.


Since entangle can not "defeat" a group of orcs by itself (it does no damage remember) - although it can be instrumental in defeating them by allowing the other characters to shoot away.

Does a bard get xp for inspirational songs that provide his allies with bonuses that allow them to defeat the orcs?


No. No single casting of a spell by itself awards xp. The effects of the spell may however "defeat" opponents or a trap (which will award xp by the way since the trap has a CR and it is overcome by the casting of the spell.)


Detect snares and pits will find a trap, thus allowing the characters to bypass it and thus get full xp for the trap. 1st level spell, only useable in wilderness but will always give xp when cast.

 

[frankthedm]

for those who want em, here are some nerfed entangle templates.

 

[Mistwell]

for those who want em, here are some nerfed entangle templates.

Frank, I disagree with your opinion on the rules about 80% of the time, but boy do you make some rocking cool graphics! Thanks for all your hard work (even though you are a freak when it comes to nerfing the rules ).

 

[frankthedm]

Frank, I disagree with your opinion on the rules about 80% of the time, but boy do you make some rocking cool graphics! Thanks for all your hard work (even though you are a freak when it comes to nerfing the rules ).

I do have an image to maintain. I doubt anyone will nerf entangle down to a 5' square, though it is an amusing thought.

 

[Mistwell]

I do have an image to maintain. I doubt anyone will nerf entangle down to a 5' square, though it is an amusing thought.

Honestly, given the opportunity, I think my character would use the smaller area more often than the current version. I know that doesn't seem logical, but really the area is TOO big, and I always seem to catch my allies in the spread, or mess up a charging or melee tactic that someone was planning on using, or allow for opponents to escape.

 

[Nail]

It's true the AoE is too big....for a 1st level spell.

If the spell were the range (Short), AoE (10 ft square), duration (1 rd/lvl), and skill checks (DC 10) like Grease, I'd have no problem with it at all.

Come on.....1st level spell as is? Really? Compare any of it's stats to any other 1st level spell.

.....and yeah, frankthedm's graphics rock. Image maintained.

 

[Mistwell]

It's true the AoE is too big....for a 1st level spell.

If the spell were the range (Short), AoE (10 ft square), duration (1 rd/lvl), and skill checks (DC 10) like Grease, I'd have no problem with it at all.

Come on.....1st level spell as is? Really? Compare any of it's stats to any other 1st level spell.

.....and yeah, frankthedm's graphics rock. Image maintained.

As I was saying, I think the area of this spell being too big is a drawback of the spell, not a benefit, to the caster. There is a point where it's too much, and I think this spell passed that point in my experience with it.