Entangle - A Little Too Strong For A 1st Level Spell?

[Nail]

Your counterargument (if it could be called one) is getting stale.

Let's freshen it up then. Is the following spell a 1st level spell? Would you allow it in your game?

Rock Entangle
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Earth 1, Rgr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: Rock in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex partial; see text
Spell Resistance: No

Rock or earth floors (that are not outdoors) wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the rock or earth floor once again attempts to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement.

Note: The effects of the spell may be altered somewhat, based on the nature of the entangling rock or earth floor.

 

[irdeggman]

What is the AoE of Grease? What is the AoE of Entangle?

Large enough to protect a character from essentially all charges for the entire duration of the spell, while entangle can only cost characters actions to get around it.

 

[Nail]

Combat utility is meaningless.

Wow.




Well, you and I will just have to stop there then.

 

[Nail]

Large enough to protect a character from essentially all charges for the entire duration of the spell, while entangle can only cost characters actions to get around it.

Entangle has a huge AoE, grease has a tiny one. Grease lasts 1 round per level, entangle lasts 1 minute per level. Grease has a Close range, entangle has a Long range. After the save, Grease requires a DC 10 skill check, Entangle requires a DC 20 skill check.

Etc.

Entangle is a first level spell?

 

[Mistwell]

Wow.




Well, you and I will just have to stop there then.

Really?

Why would combat utility be meaningful if you cannot get to the combat because you cannot get through the door to get to the combat?

You understood the analogy with Knock, you are just avoiding it by pretending you do not, and using the strawman of combat. If you are not happy with that analogy, pick any of the others I mentioned. Lets try endure elements for starters.

 

[Nail]

Really?

You say "combat utility is meaningless" and not something that is used to measure the level of a spell.

Given your premise, I don't see us coming to agreement on the more complicated issue of the spell level of Entangle. Your view is pretty far away from how I see the game played, both on these boards and face-to-face.

...and that's fine, BTW. No biggie. Game on, man.

 

[Mistwell]

You say "combat utility is meaningless" and not something that is used to measure the level of a spell.

Given your premise, I don't see us coming to agreement on the more complicated issue of the spell level of Entangle. Your view is pretty far away from how I see the game played, both on these boards and face-to-face.

...and that's fine, BTW. No biggie. Game on, man.

Why are you avoiding the endure elements example by focusing on a different example and then cutting my post out of context to make it seem like I didn't mention the endure elements example again?

Endure elements in a snow storm environment can prevent a huge amount of damage. Feather fall in a tree-house and wood-bridge environment can prevent a huge amount of damage. Why are those spells not overpowered in your opinion, if the commonality of the environment is not relevant?

 

[frankthedm]

I mean, is golemstrike overpowered in your opinion?

Depends what it does. IIRC, letting something that can not be crit all of a sudden be snuck attack is a no-no in my book, but at least constructs have bonus HP unlike undead and to use it it has to be cast from the character with sneak.

Undead turning?

Part of the system. More or less fine as long as the rogue can't sneak undead. The rogue gives up his character power for the cleric to gain character power against the undead.

That spell that makes you immune to level drain?

If you speak of death ward, complete and utter protection from a fourth level spell is not terrible, but it adds to the issue of Party has a cleric / Party does not have a cleric. It also adds to the problem of a necromancer always needing to open with a dispel magic. Plus it protects, it does not attack foes who use enegy drain.

Endure elements?

Protecting from mundane hot and cold has nothing to do with hampering a foe's speed.

Feather Fall (a spell that literally can prevent dozens of dice of damage)?

Got to have it prepped rather than on a scroll, caster has to have Line of Effect once the victims starts to fall, short range can matter a lot with this one and the spell does not reduce most foes ways of attacking you. Other than the Gavbeast.

Other than Golemstrike, none of the spells you used for examples hamper or attack foes. Limited application spells get a deal on levels nearly every time because they don't affect opponents. Most don't even effect combat.

 

[Nail]

Why are you avoiding the endure elements example by focusing on a different example and then cutting my post out of context to make it seem like I didn't mention the endure elements example again?

As I said above, given where you and I are starting ("combat utility is meaningless"), there's little point in you and I yanking each other's chain.

 

[Mistwell]

Depends what it does. IIRC, letting something that can not be crit all of a sudden be snuck attack is a no-no in my book, but at least constructs have bonus HP unlike undead and to use it it has to be cast from the character with sneak. Part of the system. More or less fine as long as the rogue can't sneak undead. The rogue gives up his character power for the cleric to gain character power against the undead. If you speak of death ward, complete and utter protection from a fourth level spell is not terrible, but it adds to the issue of Party has a cleric / Party does not have a cleric. It also adds to the problem of a necromancer always needing to open with a dispel magic. Plus it protects, it does not attack foes who use enegy drain.Protecting from mundane hot and cold has nothing to do with hampering a foe's speed. Got to have it prepped rather than on a scroll, caster has to have Line of Effect once the victims starts to fall, short range can matter a lot with this one and the spell does not reduce most foes ways of attacking you. Other than the Gavbeast.

Other than Golemstrike, none of the spells you used for examples hamper or attack foes. Limited application spells get a deal on levels nearly every time because they don't affect opponents. Most don't even effect combat.

Not being dead of very damaged is relevant to combat.

Pretending that a spell that saves your hit points from being reduced is not a combat-related spell and therefore not a valid analogy is illogical. Of course it is relevant to this debate. Your own hit points and life are as much a part of the system as stopping the movement of an opponant.

Endure elements and feather fall, in the right environment, save you a lot of hit points or even your life. Entangle, in the right envirnoment, slows or stops your opponants movement. Both are powerful in the appropriate environment, and both are mostly useless outside of that environment. Therefore commonality of that environment is relevant to the power of the spell.