Entangle - A Little Too Strong For A 1st Level Spell?

[Mistwell]

As I said above, given where you and I are starting ("combat utility is meaningless"), there's little point in you and I yanking each other's chain.

You are avoiding.

This has nothing to do with that issue. I gave you other examples that do have relevance to combat even if you do not accept where I am coming from. So stop avoiding. If feather fall and endure elements are overpowered or not is not really an issue connected to my motives or approach to the game.

 

[Nail]

Why are those spells not overpowered in your opinion, if the commonality of the environment is not relevant?

Oh, wait a minute. You and I might have somewhere to go on this point. Let's work on this part:

Endure elements (IMO) is a 1st level spell not because it can only be used in Hot or Cold environments. In fact, I really doubt that was a concern on any designer's mind at the time. The environment of application is not the dominant factor.

The dominant factor is what the spell affects when it's used. That's a key bit, and bears repeating: What the spell does determines (most) of the spell's level, not where the spell can be used.

What does Endure Elements do? For example, does Endure Elements prevent you from taking damage from Fire? Can you walk on hot coals without damage? Can you breathe in the smoke and not get sick? Can you exist comfortably on the Elemental Plane of Fire?

Etc.

 

[Nail]

You are avoiding.

Not at all.

If you say "I love flowers", and I say "I hate flowers", there's really no sense in discussing which florist is best, is there?

...but anyway, I think we've got another angle to approach now.

 

[Mistwell]

Oh, wait a minute. You and I might have somewhere to go on this point. Let's work on this part:

Endure elements (IMO) is not 1st level spell because it can only be used in Hot or Cold environments. In fact, I really doubt that was a concern on any designer's mind at the time. The environment of application is not the dominant factor.

The dominant factor is what the spell affects when it's used. That's a key bit, and bears repeating: What the spell does determines (most) of the spell's level, not where the spell can be used.

What does Endure Elements do? For example, does Endure Elements prevent you from taking damage from Fire? Can you walk on hot coals without damage? Can you breathe in the smoke and not get sick? Can you exist comfortably on the Elemental Plane of Fire?

Etc.

"Endure Elements (Duration 24 hours). A creature protected by endure elements suffers no harm from being in a hot or cold environment. It can exist comfortably in conditions between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit without having to make Fortitude saves). The creature’s equipment is likewise protected."

"In severe heat (above 110° F), a character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a -4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per each 10-minute period). A character who takes any nonlethal damage from heat exposure now suffers from heatstroke and is fatigued."

So in a severe heat environment this spell will prevent up to 144d4 of nonlethal damage (average 360 hp nonlethal damage), some of which would be lethal damage if you fall unconscious from the non-lethal, and it would prevent fatigue. All for a first level spell. That's extremely powerful for a first level spell, IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

 

[Nail]

" All for a first level spell. That's extremely powerful for a first level spell, IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

So, we both agree it can prevent environmental heat damage.

How powerful is that, in the scope of the game? For arguments sake, lets' say that the environment always is too hot.

Now, compare that to Entangle. For arguements sake, let's say that the environment is always outside, in plant-covered terrain......

 

[Nail]

BTW, I'm going to be doing a cold-based adventure soon. Do you feel that the environmental effects are reasonable? Are they balanced and fun? (The question is entirely outside of the thread's current topic. I'm not trying to pull some kind of "gotcha".)

 

[Mistwell]

So, we both agree it can prevent environmental heat damage.

How powerful is that, in the scope of the game? For arguments sake, lets' say that the environment always is too hot.

Now, compare that to Entangle. For arguements sake, let's say that the environment is always outside, in plant-covered terrain......

Pretty easy answer for me. A spell that lasts all day, preventing on average 360 damage to yourself and constant fatigue, is way more powerful than a spell that impacts essentially one combat, and doesn't even stop most foes from attacking, just stops their movement and some of their combat abilities.

 

[satori01]

The AOE of Entangle is a problem as often times it is nigh impossible to avoid Entangling some of your party mates.... a smaller area of effect...say Grease size would make the spell much more useful.

As it stands I see this spell being used as a means to delay enemies from reaching a certain point, as a retreat tactic, and only very rarely have I seen groups coordinate to use this to pin cushion enemies. The spell falls under the Evard's Black Tentacle list of spells, fun for the caster to use but the spell caster's use of the spell is mitigated by the social and group nature of the game.

Perhaps some other people's games are not as socially conscious as others...hmm

Nail, you played a Mid Level Druid awhile back if memory serves correctly...did you feel at that time the spell was overwhelming?

On the surface I would say Entangle is less dangerous than Sleep or Greater Slumber...but the utility for Entangle lasts for more levels. On a personal level I have a fondness for the spell Entangle because it can be used creatively. The Druid in my long running Urban campaign has used the spell once... one time in 17 levels and 3+ years of real time play. The Druid used Entangle on
the water slicked vines and moss on a subterranean cliff, to catch her falling party mates after their rope was cut scaling the cliff.
Spells that can be used in that fashion get wide latitude from me.

As an aside did Entangle change from 3.0. I seem to remember a notation in the spell similar to the Web Spell that sustained fire negated the effect. We have always played it as thus, allowing say a Burning Sphere to carve a path through the area of effect.

 

[frankthedm]

As an aside did Entangle change from 3.0.

IIRC 2e had it at a higher level.

3.0 Entangle
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Plant 1, Rgr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: Plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Reflex (see text)
Spell Resistance: No

Plants entwine about creatures in the area or those who enter the area, holding them fast. An entangled creature suffers a –2 penalty to attack rolls, suffers a –4 penalty to effective Dexterity, and can’t move. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15) or lose the spell. An entangled creature can break free and move half normal speed by using a full-round action to make a Strength check or an Escape Artist check (DC 20). A creature who succeeds at a Reflex saving throw is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures who have avoided or escaped entanglement.

 

[satori01]

BTW, I'm going to be doing a cold-based adventure soon. Do you feel that the environmental effects are reasonable? Are they balanced and fun? (The question is entirely outside of the thread's current topic. I'm not trying to pull some kind of "gotcha".)

My memory of those little used rules is that the seem balanced...and a good approximation of reality. Uttercold rules from WOTC environment book were pretty decent as well.