Entangle - A Little Too Strong For A 1st Level Spell?

[Nifft]

Quall's Feather Token: Tree

We need Quall's Feather Token: Shrubbery!

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nail]

I have already named spells that are as powerful at higher levels and tend to be much easier to use.

Like Sleep?

If I had a 1st level Dominate Monster spell, would you argue "Oh but that only affects 1 creature and it has ranged Close, so it is not as good as Entangle"? Of course not.

That's a pretty wild over-simplification of the argument for why Entangle is "over-powered" compared to other spells.

Again:

Range: Long
Name another 1st level AoE spell with this range that can hamper large numbers of creatures. Given this spell is to be used outdoors, it's just the sort of spell to be really useful at longer ranges.

AoE: 40 ft r.
What other 1st level offensive spell has this large of an area? Name one present in the core rules. And as we've seen above, outdoors this area is effectively scalable ("aim high!"), so the "too big to be useful" argument falls flat.

Duration: 1 min/level
You can't "outlast" this spell, at least in a normal D&D combat. It's there for the whole combat, however long that takes. Duck and cover while stuck just slows your fate as a pin-cushion. Compare to other 1st level offesive spells.

Effect: Str or Esc. Artist checks of DC 20
Again, compare to other 1st level spells. Grease has DC 10 checks. What are some other spells with comparable skill checks? Name some.

But that is for you to establish through argumetns based on evidence and/or experience.

Which I've done. Again.

Look Ridley's Cohort, I'm really sorry your druid didn't get to see alot of use from this spell. That experience surprises me, but I'm not about to suggest that your experience is invalid. Unlike a previous poster, I won't suggest "your tactics just plain suck eggs."

 

[Jhulae]

To be honest, the GM can honestly control when Entangle can or can't be used. If there's no plants, roots, or trees about, the spell is pretty much useless. Dungeons, deserts, barren mountain passes, etc., all render the spell worthless.

Don't get me wrong. When it works, it works well. But, the DM can completely block it from being used.

And, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what level spell Entangle is comparable to, as it was already stated elsewhere a Tanglefoot bag was comparable to a 4th level spell.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

That experience surprises me, but I'm not about to suggest that your experience is invalid.

Acknowledging this is how you should behave is at least a start. But it is a mighty peculiar pretense after trying to put words into my mouth 4 or 5 times in this thread, including this very same post of yours.

Your post here has interesting points that could be worthy of addressing, but given your track record, I am not willing to spend the effort on someone who is likely to purposefully misinterpret me. Your quality of discourse is simply not worth the effort.

I also note you have avoided some of my other arguments put forth. You would hardly be under any obligation to address such things, but it would be a sign of a willingness to read and bother understanding that is so far missing.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what level spell Entangle is comparable to, as it was already stated elsewhere a Tanglefoot bag was comparable to a 4th level spell.

IMO it is a very weak version of Web.

On the plus side it has a bigger AoE and better range. On the minus side it is outright unusable in most encounters in typical campaigns (IME). Seems to me this is a slight minus overall, but YMMV.

 

[phindar]

My main beef with Entangle is the same beef I have with Web, even if you make your save you're still hosed, just hosed to a lesser degree. If Web is a 2nd level spell, it makes sense Entangle is a 1st, because even though it has a larger AoE and longer range, it's situational and a little easier to move through. That said, if someone came along and made Web a 3rd level spell and Entangle a 2nd, I wouldn't spend my nights wailing into my pillow about it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In the past 5 years, we've had so few encounters in the wild- almost everything has been urban or subterranean- that the spell has been "dead weight."

We've used Entangle in precisely one encounter- taking out some harpies that were swooping down on the party. The caster got lucky- all of the harpies were in the AoE, and failed their rolls.

Funny thing was, we rolled so poorly that our attacks on the Entangled harpies were so weak we had to use 3 to finish them off. (See? You CAN "outlast" this spell!) You have never seen so many misses and damage rolls under 3 in your life. We depleted the party's entire store of arrows, daggers, and a pair of throwing axes. Some PCs were resorting to throwing rocks. (No- I didn't say using a sling, I said throwing!)

 

[Jhulae]

IMO it is a very weak version of Web.

On the plus side it has a bigger AoE and better range. On the minus side it is outright unusable in most encounters in typical campaigns (IME). Seems to me this is a slight minus overall, but YMMV.

I agree with you, RC. In another thread, someone said a Tanglefoot bag was comparable to Enervation. By that line of reasoning, what would Entagle (or web) be equivalent to? I'm still waiting for people who claimed that (or agreed with that claim) to say what level spell Entagle or Web should be, if the TFB is equivalent to Enervation.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I agree with phindar. To the extent I have observed a problem in actual play, it is Web that is the culprit. I just nod politely to this Sacred-Cow-with-sloppy-mechanics and do not lose any sleep over it.

In this context, Entangle as a big problem seems extremely theorectical. In these high-level worst case scenarios, you are unlikely to see Entangle make the encounter a joke IMO. You are most likely to see Entangle and Web working in tandem to make the encounter a joke.

If Web were revised to something I would find more palatable, then I would agree that Entangle would need to be revamped as well.

 

[Felon]

I agree with you, RC. In another thread, someone said a Tanglefoot bag was comparable to Enervation. By that line of reasoning, what would Entagle (or web) be equivalent to? I'm still waiting for people who claimed that (or agreed with that claim) to say what level spell Entagle or Web should be, if the TFB is equivalent to Enervation.

And, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what level spell Entangle is comparable to, as it was already stated elsewhere a Tanglefoot bag was comparable to a 4th level spell.

Why do you keep trying to drag some analogy made in some other thread about tanglefoot bags into this one? Deciding that entangle is OK because of some other tangentially-related arguement about a tanglefoot bag that you didn't think held water strikes as some critical thinking flaw or other that I don't have time to look up the nomenclature for.

Lord knows there's always folks who need to assert that everything's OK and lump all complainers together without regard for the merits of their complaints, but after all that work I did to illustrate how effective an entangle is even in an EL 13, I can't believe some folks can be so dismissive.