Entangle - A Little Too Strong For A 1st Level Spell?

[Felon]

I agree with phindar. To the extent I have observed a problem in actual play, it is Web that is the culprit. I just nod politely to this Sacred-Cow-with-sloppy-mechanics and do not lose any sleep over it.

Web is another problematic spell to be sure and in some ways it's stronger (it's harder to get out of) and in some ways weaker (smaller area). But the flaws of web don't vindicate entangle; they're both problematic as they are effectively "common rocks without equally-common paper" in the current rules.

In this context, Entangle as a big problem seems extremely theorectical. In these high-level worst case scenarios, you are unlikely to see Entangle make the encounter a joke IMO.

In the scenario I provided, I don't see where the circumstances were particularly unlikely and thus restricted to the realm of the theoretical. Even with 10-foot bases, eight hill giants can occupy a 40-foot radius area with elbow room to spare.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Lord knows there's always folks who need to assert that everything's OK and that other folks' concerns are overreactions, but after all that work I did to illustrate how effective an entangle is even in an EL 13, I'd have hoped a few more folks would lose the rose-colored glasses.

Is this a real problem you have observed in actual play? How often? I may have missed that information earlier in the thread.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Web is another problematic spell to be sure and in some ways it's stronger (it's harder to get out of) and in some ways weaker (smaller area). But the flaws of web don't vindicate entangle; they're both problematic as they are effectively "common rocks without equally-common paper" in the current rules.

Obscuring Mist is not a complete solution, but it helps immensely when stuck between one of these "rocks" and a hard place. As Obscuring Mist appears on many spell lists, this "paper" is more common than the "rock" in question.

I consider Obscuring Mist as a scroll (or a one-shot magical "potion" if the DM allows that kind of thing) to be a must have because this is a special case of a general problem.

In the scenario I provided, I don't see where the circumstances were particularly unlikely and thus restricted to the realm of the theoretical. Even with 10-foot bases, eight hill giants can occupy a 40-foot radius area with elbow room to spare.

They could be that grouped. But why would they choose to be? Why should they choose a formation that puts at least 3 of them in a Fireball when they have plenty of space? It does happen sometimes, but it does not seem like a good example of EL 13 scenario design to me.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

And, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what level spell Entangle is comparable to...

First level... its a lesser Web that has some advantages {range/AoE} and some disadvantages {terrain requirement}

Whether your DM runs it with these limitations is another issue.

On the other hand, if your DM applies these limitations, similar to what I suggest upthread, there is no argument left concerning the spell being 'overpowered'.

 

[frankthedm]

We've used Entangle in precisely one encounter- taking out some harpies that were swooping down on the party. The caster got lucky- all of the harpies were in the AoE, and failed their rolls.

I have some major difficulties picturing how that could happen. Those harpies should never been at ground level {flyby attack} and because the rules don't allow for simutaneous actions, a readied entangle could have only gotton one of them IF the plantlife was high enough to reach them.

 

[Jhulae]

First level... its a lesser Web that has some advantages {range/AoE} and some disadvantages {terrain requirement}

Whether your DM runs it with these limitations is another issue.

On the other hand, if your DM applies these limitations, similar to what I suggest upthread, there is no argument left concerning the spell being 'overpowered'.

I agree, Primitive Screwhead. It's a 1st level spell. But, if you read some replies elsewhere comparing an item to Enervation...

 

[Nail]

Your post here has interesting points that could be worthy of addressing, but given your track record, I am not willing to spend the effort on someone who is likely to purposefully misinterpret me. Your quality of discourse is simply not worth the effort.

Wow.