Entirely New Starship combat/construction rules?

[Masada]

Is anyone working a better system? There seems to be a big focus on compatibility with d20 Future even though it is widely considered to be sub-par. I know there have been tons of "just convert this system" discussions. But I don't want the hassle. Can anyone just right a nice soft-cover supplement?

Sure make your mainline product compatible, but can you include an extra supplement with optional rules? I was really hoping Blood & Space 2 would do this--and while it did really improve things, it still focused on compatibility (the contruction piece is better, but still has to deal with the odd collection of limits in d20 Future).

I don't want to start a debate about what systems are better or what is flawed with any given system. I'm looking for something complete either in PDF or print that describes a better system for starships that still works with PC abilities to pilot, fight and build starships.

I'm excited about the quality of Dawning Star. Is BDG doing something?

Nova Wars looked pretty cool, altho at last read it was still pretty rough. Is that going to get polish soon?

How about Blood & Space 2: Damn the Torpedoes?

Or maybe a Future Starship Companion from Stan!?

I might even be interested in Cellestial Arcana from Monte!

 

[Vigilance]

I can only speak for myself, but as a writer in the genre I would wait before I personally wrote a new system, which is why I decided to aim for maximum compatibility in BNS II.

The reason is simple: having just bought a rather expensive book, most folks are more apt to try and make that work for them than to buy something else.

Also, for someone with the desire for something completely new, there's still the original BNS, which is marked down to less than the price a new space combat/starship construction book would be (in other words, even though the classes wouldnt be useful, the construction chapter could still be used to replace d20F as a whole and the book is currently running at about 4 bucks in PDF).

Chuck

 

[Masada]

Excellent suggestion. I had forgotten there was a B&S... uh... 1. So that's a viable option. D20 Future is still a good buy even if you throw out the starship sections. To me this feels like one of the better areas to expand in d20 Modern. Vehicles in general are ad hoc and/or clunky (IMO). I'll see if I can look in to the original B&S.

How about others? Is anyone considering a published re-vamp of starship rules?

 

[Justin D. Jacobson]

Is anyone working a better system? There seems to be a big focus on compatibility with d20 Future even though it is widely considered to be sub-par. I know there have been tons of "just convert this system" discussions. But I don't want the hassle. Can anyone just right a nice soft-cover supplement?

Sure make your mainline product compatible, but can you include an extra supplement with optional rules? I was really hoping Blood & Space 2 would do this--and while it did really improve things, it still focused on compatibility (the contruction piece is better, but still has to deal with the odd collection of limits in d20 Future).

I don't want to start a debate about what systems are better or what is flawed with any given system. I'm looking for something complete either in PDF or print that describes a better system for starships that still works with PC abilities to pilot, fight and build starships.

I'm excited about the quality of Dawning Star. Is BDG doing something?

Funny you should mention. We are indeed planning on a supplement. Silver Eclipse will present rules for starship construction and space combat. Our design method is to re-build from the ground up. (To be candid, the design team didn't love the starship rules from d20 Future.) It will be pure d20, but it will be our own version and will be designed to solve some of the problems we identified, e.g., finding a role for all characters. We had planned to release before Gen Con, but everything was pushed back since we decided to expand Helios Rising to 350+ pages.

 

[Johnny Angel]

My own problem is that I'm looking to do conversions of the old Star*Drive modules (and possibly later some old Star Wars and Buck Rogers modules), and I'm concerned that the conversions themselves can quickly end up needing re-conversion. Especially for science fiction, I'm seeing a lot more settings and new rules out there than actual modules. It's like everybody's selling peanut butter, but nobody selling bread to spread it on or milk to wash it down with. Yes, yes, you can develop your own adventures, but it's terribly inefficient for everybody who is running one of these games to spend hours and hours reinventing the wheel where, to extend the analogy further, it will turn out that nobody's wheel is usable by anybody else even where it occured to anybody to share. GMs deservedly take pride in developing their own adventures, but then their efforts boil off into the vacuum as useless entropy. Sure, you can raise your own hogs, too, and the bacon will be all that much sweeter. But they sell bacon at the store, and I like bacon a lot more than I like hogs.

Ach. I'll save the rest of the bloviation for another thread. My point is that I didn't want to create any more work for a GM who wanted to run my conversion. I just wanted to present the d20 version of whatever rule-related material is in the module. I chose to work with the d20 Future starship system in spite of my reservations because the further we get from some kind of standard, the more work it is to drop an adventure into a campaign. The genre is already sorely lacking in ready-to-run adventures.

There I go again.

As much as I was disappointed that Blood & Space 2 didn't have the kind of rich starship combat system that the original had, I was grateful that I could use its rules to customize by method rather than by feel, and that the end result would not require anything other than d20 Future to use. The d20 Modern compatibility in Blood & Space 2 was overall a good trade-off. It's not the encompassing solution we've all been hoping for, but it is ready-to-play.

What other solutions are available? How about:

Option 1: Go back to Blood & Space.

I liked what I saw of Blood & Space, and I had the impression that it was not entirely obscure, but it seems to me that it was integrated with its own archetype class system and its own network of feats. Drop a standard d20 Future pilot in there and he won't have had access to the feats that the system is built assuming he'd have access to. It's a good system, but you kind of have to drink the kool-aid before you can join the club. It is not ready-to-play for d20 Future campaign.

Option 2: Wait for a new system to come out.

I feel like I waited forever just for d20 Future to come out. Shall I always be waiting for the next thing to come out before I try to make something that can be played now, so that I don't have to do a lot of retcon work later? When the new thing comes out, can I create scenarios on it that are usable by people who have only the SRD? Will the company support it not with more rules but with more adventures that are designed with those rules and that campaign setting in mind? Will I just have to convert everything over to whatever system comes up next?

Option 3: Just suck it up and play.

Right now, working with the flawed d20 Future system is the best option for being able to play now instead of waiting or converting. I'd like to do this, but first I feel compelled to engineer the materials needed to do so. But I want to make it so that someone else can use the material to play without having to do the work all over again.

 

[Aussiegamer]

I have been working a variation of future, traveller and some others. It is a slot based system which allows you to build any type of craft you like from scratch and not have to rely on handouts from the game makers as they don't give you a complete set of space craft building rules.

It is FREE and available from the below link at d20projects (nexus).

I would love feed back as it is a work in progress, though I am happy with the general fell of it.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Just use the T20 rules. T20 gives complete rules for building starships (and other vehicles), and has space combat rules that allow every member of the crew to contribute to the battle.

 

[philreed]

I'm seeing a lot more settings and new rules out there than actual modules.

You may want to check some of Ronin Arts' starship PDFs -- especially Starship 13 -- since they include adventure hooks and some include campaign concepts and suggestions. They're not just starships.

 

[Johnny Angel]

philreed wrote:

You may want to check some of Ronin Arts' starship PDFs -- especially Starship 13 -- since they include adventure hooks and some include campaign concepts and suggestions. They're not just starships.

Adventure hooks aren't bad. No matter how inventive you are, somebody else can always give you and idea that you wouldn't have thought of, but you can make a lot of when it is presented to you. But that comes far short of a module, a prepared adventure. Really, it's no less work than an idea you came up with all by yourself would be. It's just something to help get you going.

 

[Masada]

Okay, nobody wants to see a diluted game system market for sci-fi. I completely understand the wisdom used by Chuck Rice is deciding to stick with d20 Future standard. Just from thread count here it also appears that T20 is popular. Since most of what needs to be included in a module is simply a stat block, is it too far fetched to design starship adventure modules with an appendix of converted stat blocks for the dominant systems?

I also want to follow up on Blood & Space 2 to re-iterate that it is excellent and adds much to the d20 Future system without altering it. So far it is by far the best low-effort (to the player and GM) option for starship gaming IMO. It gives great rules for letting characters participate in ship to ship combat.

It just seems there should be room for an "advanced starship combat/construction" system. I suddenly feel the urge to sponsor a RPG Standards Committee (EEEEEK!).