Epic Destinies and Earth Giants

[ShockMeSane]

The great irony here of course is that it isn't like Hill Giants did anything other than swing their club and throw rocks at things in 3.x. I mean, this isn't exactly a step backwards.

As far as Titans go, yea, the preview one is a little dissapointing for sure. But, I imagine that the most powerful servants of the primordials were not level 16 elites or whatever. If there aren't higher level Giants available I'd be shocked.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Monsters deal less damage and fight things with less hit points.

PCs deal more damage and fight things with more hit points.

Okay, that seems all in ratio, and reasonable. There's probably good reason for it - if you look at the old DDM RPG stats, monsters used to have a lot less hit points for instance.

So why wasn´t the Damage of players toned down (maybe a bit difficult) or Player HP on par with monster HP, so that monsters can do double damage...

Hill giants are a bit "weak"... at least their club should do more damage than their thrown rocks...

 

[ProfessorCirno]

The great irony here of course is that it isn't like Hill Giants did anything other than swing their club and throw rocks at things in 3.x. I mean, this isn't exactly a step backwards.

Ye,s but 3.x didn't promise anything else . Giants were just that - very large creatures.

This preview talks about how awe inspiring and epic and amazing the giants are, and then they give...this?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy AllisterH!

I disagree with this quite strenuously...

So, in your opinion then, a Hill Giant should only deal the same damage as a Level 3 Human Berseker and less damage than a Level 7 Bugbear Headreaver...is that correct?

I mean I know damage in 4E is lessened but there has to be some verisimilitude here surely.

A level 16 defender will be hardpressed to have an AC over 30 (Kathra started at 19 and she would gain +8 from level, throw in another +3 from magic et al).

Meaning that the Titan every round will do on average 17 pts of damage which means it can finish off a defender in 7 rounds. Which means to me that two level 16 characters should be able to beat it in 5-6 round.

Which I consider a good battle length.

Brutes are meant to be the heavy-hitters. Engaging one in melee should be a bad move for all but the most accomplished defenders.

 

[Wolfspider]

The great irony here of course is that it isn't like Hill Giants did anything other than swing their club and throw rocks at things in 3.x.

What's 3rd edition got to do with it?

 

[Gargazon]

So, in your opinion then, a Hill Giant should only deal the same damage as a Level 3 Human Berseker and less damage than a Level 7 Bugbear Headreaver...is that correct?

I mean I know damage in 4E is lessened but there has to be some verisimilitude here surely.

First of all the Bugbear Headreaver stat-block I imagine you are referring to (as I'm pretty sure the actual MM stats haven't been leaked) comes from a DDM stat card, which dates from a time where monsters were designed with 'less hp, more damage' in mind. The one in the MM is probably more reasonable.

As for the giant's damage, I don't see the problem. A gang of Hill Giant is still going to pummel the 13th level party. I imagine the Defender can only keep one or two busy while the other three throw rocks and kill the squishier characters.

Brutes are meant to be the heavy-hitters. Engaging one in melee should be a bad move for all but the most accomplished defenders.

No, a Defender should be the only character that CAN stand toe-to-toe with the brute. If the Earth Titan was facing a character of a different role I imagine he'd turn them into a fine paste in 3-4 rounds.

And just something else - if you do make the Sweeping Club into a recharge power, does this not open up the sport of PC tennis to the Hill Giants?

 

[AllisterH]

Howdy AllisterH!



So, in your opinion then, a Hill Giant should only deal the same damage as a Level 3 Human Berseker and less damage than a Level 7 Bugbear Headreaver...is that correct?.

Not so sure about the Hill Giant myself. Seriously, read the Tactics section and that doesn't really sound like a Brute (the Hill Giant uses rocks UNTIL the OPPONENT closes in?). I wonder if the Hill Giant is an "exception based design" creature in that it has the defenses of a Brute, but the long-range power of Artillery....

Brutes are meant to be the heavy-hitters. Engaging one in melee should be a bad move for all but the most accomplished defenders.

The titan's fine though...Fighters and the paladin will have the highest AC (both the DDXP and the Shadowfell have an AC of 20 at 1st level) and the highest HP and a Titan can still take them out either one in 7 rounds...

The other classes though? Most of the other classes are looking at an AC at least 3-4 lower than the defenders and I'd be surprised if any break 100 HP at that point.

A difference of 3-4 in their AC jumps up the average damage from the Titan to 22-24 pts per round and thus killing them off in 4-5 rounds. Heh, basically, a Titan could probably kill 2 non-defenders in the time it takes the Titan to kill off one Defender...

 

[keterys]

Can we stop mentioning the Bugbear's RPG stats (which are from a DDM card and wrong) and use something from the actual monster manual for the example?

I mean, we've got gricks and gnolls, and they illustrate the point too

 

[Stalker0]

What's 3rd edition got to do with it?

About as much as love

I do think the giants seem a tad bland, but on the other hand you don't want every monster to be chock full of powers and the like, sometimes you want a monster the dm can just sit back, relax, and beat his players into submission. I agree that these low damages seem very low, but we aren't accustomed to the 4e paradigm yet.

To me, 5 giants would be scary mainly for their rock throwing, as it basically lets them target any one of the characters at the same time, a tactic even giants would probably use. 5 rocks thrown at the wizard's head is likely to make for a bad day.

 

[Fanaelialae]

IMO, if you're going to compare orcs and giants, you should probably use the same types. The orc berserker and Hill giant are both basic brutes:

[sblock]Orc Berserker Level 4 Brute
Medium natural humanoid XP 175
Initiative +3 Senses Perception +2; low-light vision
HP 66; Bloodied 33; see also warrior’s surge
AC 15; Fortitude 17, Refl ex 13, Will 12
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
m Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+8 vs. AC; 1d12 + 5 damage (crit 1d12 + 17).
M Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter)
✦ Healing, Weapon
The orc berserker makes a melee basic attack and regains 16 hit
points.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +10, Intimidate +6
Str 20 (+7) Dex 13 (+3) Wis 10 (+2)
Con 16 (+5) Int 8 (+1) Cha 9 (+1)
Equipment leather armor, greataxe

Hill Giant
Level 13 Brute
Large natural humanoid (giant)
XP 800
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +7
HP 159; Bloodied 79
AC 25; Fortitude 27, Reflex 21, Will 23
Speed 8
Greatclub (standard; at-will) WeaponReach 2; +15 vs. AC; 1d10 + 5 damage.
Sweeping Club (standard; encounter) Weapon
The hill giant makes a greatclub attack against two Medium or smaller targets; on a hit, the target is pushed 2 squares and knocked prone.
Hurl Rock (standard; at-will) Ranged 8/16; +15 vs. AC; 2d6 + 5 damage.
Alignment Chaotic evil
Languages Giant
Skills Athletics +16
Str 21 (+11) Dex 8 (+5) Wis 12 (+7) Con 19 (+10) Int 7 (+4) Cha 9 (+5)
Equipment hide armor, greatclub[/sblock]

And the Orc Bloodrager to the Earth Titan (both elite brutes):

[sblock]Orc Bloodrager Level 7 Elite Brute
Medium natural humanoid XP 600
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
HP 194; Bloodied 97; see also warrior’s surge
AC 21; Fortitude 22, Refl ex 19, Will 17
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
Action Points 1
m Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+11 vs. AC; 1d12 + 5 damage (crit 1d12 + 17); see also blood for
blood.
M Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter)
✦ Healing, Weapon
The orc bloodrager makes a melee basic attack and regains 48
hit points.
MWounded Retaliation (immediate reaction, when hit by an
adjacent enemy; at-will)
The orc bloodrager makes a melee basic attack against the
enemy.
Blood for Blood ✦ Healing, Weapon
When it hits a bloodied enemy, the orc bloodrager deals an extra
5 damage and regains 10 hit points.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +11, Intimidate +8
Str 20 (+8) Dex 15 (+5) Wis 11 (+3)
Con 17 (+6) Int 9 (+2) Cha 10 (+3)
Equipment leather armor, greataxe

Earth Titan
Level 16 Elite Brute
Huge elemental humanoid (earth, giant)
XP 2,800
Initiative +7
Senses Perception +9
HP 384; Bloodied 192
AC 31; Fortitude 33, Reflex 27, Will 28
Immune petrification
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6
Action Points 1
Slam (standard; at-will)Reach 3; +20 vs. AC; 2d10 + 6 damage.
Double Attack (standard; at-will)The earth titan makes two slam attacks.
Hurl Rock (standard; at-will) Ranged 20; +18 vs. Reflex; 2d8 + 6 damage, and the target is dazed (save ends).
Earth Shock (standard; encounter) Close burst 2; +18 vs. Fortitude; 2d10 + 6 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of the earth titan’s next turn. Miss: Half damage, and the target is not stunned.
Alignment Chaotic evil
Languages Giant, Primordial
Skills Athletics +19
Str 23 (+14) Dex 8 (+7) Wis 12 (+9) Con 22 (+14) Int 11 (+8) Cha 13 (+9)[/sblock]

The Hill Giant does indeed do less damage than the Berserker, but I expect that this is because he is one handing a (human) greatclub whereas the orc is two-handing a greataxe. If you replaced his greatclub with a larger weapon I imagine the discrepancy would be fixed (although I am curious as to the reasoning behind it, assuming it wasn't just an oversight). My best guess would be that the hill giant, unlike the berserker, has a ranged attack as well.

The Titan does do significantly more damage than the Bloodrager though.