Epic Feats

[Marshall]

Sure. But there was a cost to pay when you could only hit 20th level - you were losing the higher level abilities of both classes. (And Fighter isn't the only one - any class with bonus feats demonstrates it to some extent, as Crothian pointed out.)

It is the only class that gets bonus feats right off the bat. You have to wait 5 levels for a WIZ(and those are really restricted), some of the PrCs also, but again usually you have to take a couple levels to get to them and by then you'd have been better off staying where you were.

Rage duration is not affected by level. The number of times you can rage per day is, but you'll notice I mentioned that (and with Extra Rage, dealt with it). None of the rage feats require anything other than the ability to rage 5/day (Brb 16) or Greater Rage (Brb15).

Youre right, for some reason I thought it was level+CON. For the feats I say, YET. As it is, a BRB will run out of feats to take at around, what 35th level? From then on he is gaining no benefit from being a Brb. Is that a problem with MC or with the lack of any definitive class progressions?

As for skills, let's be honest - nobody plays the barbarian because they're a skill monster - a ranger or a rogue would both be better for that purpose. The following skills are on the barbarian list that aren't on the fighter list: Intimidate, Intuit Direction, Listen, Wilderness Lore. "Oh, no! My 24 ranks of Intuit Direction may not be enough to let me find north!" I guess if those four skills were the ones that you'd been pumping since first level, it might not be worth while, but if you're like most barbarians, you've probably been dropping quite a few ranks into Climb, Jump, and maybe Ride - all class skills for the fighter. And once you've got 25 or so ranks in a skill, there's not many normal situations you can't handle.

I view BRB as an alternate RNG. No spells, better offense. Shock Troops compared to Special Forces.

You picked the weakest skill of those 4, Bumping up Listen, Wilderness Lore and Intimidate all give Epic benefits. Climb is really narrow focus and unless you have something to remove the limits Jump maxes out pre-epic, so youre left with Ride as a common skill. Yep, hes really good on a Horse, Lion, Bear, Dragon.....

That depends on what they're going after. An Epic Cleric who engaged in a lot of combat might find a couple of levels of Epic Fighter very attractive. Fighter/Rogue is a very powerful multiclass, and it'd be even more powerful as EpicFtr/Rog.

And chances are these type characters are going to MC into FTR pre-epic, you have to to get that 4th attack.

Wizards and sorcerers, less so, it's true (although if they were already MCed as Ftr/Wiz they're suddenly getting it all over the Rog/Wiz or Rng/Wiz - "Hey, I get Epic stuff now and you have to wait for 15 more levels, ha ha!")

Thats a problem, but its a problem with MC and the Epic rules moreso than the Epic FTR. Because unless you are gaining bonus "epic" feats at levels 21+ youre going to be falling farther and farther behind those that are.

The ELH rewards sticking with a path - whether that be a single class or a PrC. Allowing fighters to take Epic feats with their bonus feat does not.

J

I'd say the ELH rewards classes with bonus feats. You dont have to stay a path, you just have to min/max as many feats as you can get your hands on. Which penalizes any FTR-type without FTR levels and nearly invalidates any MC combination that doesnt include FTR.

 

[Catalyst]

I agree with those who've said a large part of the problem is that pretty much the sole "class" ability of Fighters is simply massive feats, and that feats are so important at Epic levels.

I wonder how much this debate/argument would be solved if Fighters simply got bonus feats at every even level (that is, did not get one at first level). An epic character would have to take four levels of Fighter to get two feats instead of two levels. That might not be attractive enough for the Rogue to give up on skills, Wizard to give up spellcasting/Spellcraft ranks, etc. and frankly would prevent the Fighter class from being front-loaded as many have argued the PHB Ranger always has been...

 

[drnuncheon]

I wonder how much this debate/argument would be solved if Fighters simply got bonus feats at every even level (that is, did not get one at first level). An epic character would have to take four levels of Fighter to get two feats instead of two levels. That might not be attractive enough for the Rogue to give up on skills, Wizard to give up spellcasting/Spellcraft ranks, etc. and frankly would prevent the Fighter class from being front-loaded as many have argued the PHB Ranger always has been...

It would also make the single-class fighter the only class that doesn't get a special ability at first level, making them a worse fighter than the barbarian, paladin, or ranger.

J

 

[drnuncheon]

For the feats I say, YET. As it is, a BRB will run out of feats to take at around, what 35th level? From then on he is gaining no benefit from being a Brb. Is that a problem with MC or with the lack of any definitive class progressions?

Well, there are several epic barbarian feats that you can take multiple times. (Armor Skin, Damage Reduction, Epic Prowess, Epic Weapon Focus, Fast Healing...) So you don't ever run out - I believe that all of the classes were designed that way, with some open-ended 'repeatable' feats.

I'd say the ELH rewards classes with bonus feats. You dont have to stay a path, you just have to min/max as many feats as you can get your hands on. Which penalizes any FTR-type without FTR levels and nearly invalidates any MC combination that doesnt include FTR.

Of course, making it so that non-epic levels of fighter don't give epic feats will make fighter less attractive as an epic-level multiclass option - thereby moving the min/maxing of feats back to "stick with your original class". Which is what I've been saying all along.

J