[Epic] Gaining Spells

[las]

Other than the epic one there is a way to get more cantips if that what your after its a feat in the Guidebook Tome and Blood Could Extra slot lets see a standered wizards spells per day looks like this right.

4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4

With extra slot at least once if you whant that extra cantrip.

5/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4

With gust the epic feat once.

4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/1

With the epic feat two time and extra slot at least once after you take the to epic ones.

4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/2/1

and it goes on with thos feats and by the way thats not with bonus feats.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Other than the epic one there is a way to get more cantips if that what your after its a feat in the Guidebook Tome and Blood

I had forgotten about Extra Slot. Mind you, it still doesn't solve the basic problem of 1 slot/feat, which I still think is harsh, but it is another option. (And the slots it grants are affected by RoW, IIRC.)

 

[GuardianLurker]

Analysis complete

Whoogh! That was a lot of numbers.

OK, first, here's the raw data :
http://patriot.net/~glurker/DnD/Analysis/spelllprog.html

There are some pretty hefty graphics on that page, so it will probably take a while to load. (In fact, unless you're on broadband, you probably shouldn't bother...)

Basic upshot: The feat in its current form seems to produce the smoothest curves. The semi-spell casters gain a little more benefit from the pair, since they can gain multiple metamagic spell slots per level from it, while the pure spellcasters will only gain one.

Final numbers represent something very close to the maximal progression, as I calculated as if the character spent all of his epic slots on the two feats. Practical spell progression will be much less than this. Even at this "rapid" pace, spell progression is about twice as slow as non-epic levels.

Cleric:
____0__1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9
20__6__5__5__5__5__5__4__4__4__4
30__9__7__7__7__6__6__5__4__4__4
40_10__9__7__7__7__7__6__5__5__5
50_10__9__9__8__8__8__7__7__7__7
60_11_11_11_10_10_10__8__8__8__8

Wizard:
____0__1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9
20__4__4__4__4__4__4__4__4__4__4
30__7__6__5__5__5__5__5__4__4__4
40__8__8__6__6__6__6__6__5__5__5
50__8__8__8__7__7__7__7__7__7__7
60_11_10_10__9__9__9__8__8__8__8

Sorceror:
____0__1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9
20__6__6__6__6__6__6__6__6__6__6
30__9__8__8__8__7__7__7__6__6__6
40_10_10__8__8__8__8__8__7__7__7
50_10_10_10__9__9__9__9__9__9__9
60_13_12_12_11_11_11_10_10_10_10

Druid:
____0__1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9
20__6__5__5__5__5__5__4__4__4__4
30__8__7__6__6__6__6__4__4__4__4
40_10__9__9__8__7__6__5__5__5__4
50_11_10_10__8__7__7__6__6__5__5
60_12_11_10__9__8__8__7__7__7__6

Bard:
____0__1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9
20__4__4__4__4__4__4__4__0__0__0
30__7__6__6__6__5__5__4__1__1__1
40__8__8__7__8__6__5__5__2__2__1
50__9__9__9__9__8__7__7__3__2__2
60_10_10_10__9__9__8__7__4__4__4

Paladin/Ranger:
____1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9
20__3__3__3__3__0__0__0__0__0
30__2__2__2__1__1__1__1__1__0
40__4__3__3__3__2__2__1__1__1
50__7__5__4__4__3__3__2__2__2
60__8__6__5__4__4__4__4__3__3

So, now that the numbers are up, opinions?

 

[Crothian]

Wow. Let me just sit back and say Wow. I've turned in physics reports that had less information. Did I mention "Wow"?

I like the way you have them. I think you might have gone a little overboard with the charts (did I say Wow yet? ) but I think it looks more then fair and not going to cause people problems.

Wow.

EDIT: Seriously, did I mention Wow??

 

[GuardianLurker]

Wow. Let me just sit back and say Wow. I've turned in physics reports that had less information. Did I mention "Wow"?

Heh. One of the side effects of working in a testing shop I guess.
As for the charts, StarOffice makes them easy. In fact, it even generated that nice little html page for me. Up StarOffice! Down Microsloth!

But man did I learn some things - like Wizards have the slowest spell progression of all the pure spellcasters (by quite a bit), or that Druids are the only spellcasting class that get less than 1 epic bonus feat for every three levels (their bonus feats are 1/4 levels), etc, etc.

 

[Crothian]

Ya, druids do get less feats but they get more wildshapes a day, and that is very powerful especially with all the Wildshaping feats that are avalible. Clerics get Turning, Wizards and sorcerers get Familiar increasing. Neither is as good as Wildshape. Oh, and Druids get more skill points, and Animal campanion.

I know Wizards get the slowest progresion, but that's cause they have the best spells. Arcane spells are a little better then their Divine counterparts, and Sorcerers are limited to so very few spells.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Ya, druids do get less feats but they get more wildshapes a day, and that is very powerful especially with all the Wildshaping feats that are avalible. Clerics get Turning, Wizards and sorcerers get Familiar increasing. Neither is as good as Wildshape. Oh, and Druids get more skill points, and Animal campanion.

I know Wizards get the slowest progresion, but that's cause they have the best spells. Arcane spells are a little better then their Divine counterparts, and Sorcerers are limited to so very few spells.

Yeah, the Druid thing was an interesting observation, not a lot more. The interesting thing is that *all* of the druid's advantages "merely" push them from a 1/3 feat schedule (like the other spellcasters) to a 1/4. Which just demonstrates how *much* that difference is worth in the designer's eyes.

As for Sorcs limited to so very few spells, check out the difference between Sorc Spells Known (http://patriot.net/~glurker/DnD/Analysis/spelllprog.html#table7) and Wizard Spells/Day (http://patriot.net/~glurker/DnD/Analysis/spelllprog.html#table8). I'm tempted to run a difference between the two. For now, suffice to say that they're *very* close, and that's kind of bothersome.

OK, crunched the numbers (spreadsheets make it easy...); On average, the sorceror knows 1/3 slot's worth of spells MORE than the wizard can cast. Of course, that's on average. On a level by level basis, the Sorceror always knows more spells than the wizard can cast (peaking at about 6 at levels 10-12). However, the wizard can *cast* more 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells than the Sorceror KNOWS (by one (!) each). [I'll skip the charts, this time. ]

*Grumble, snarl* People are always complaining about how few spells the Sorc can know, and Wizards can't even *cast* that many. *Grumble, snarl.*