Epic level casters versus fighters

[Dark Eternal]

Come on now, the book is riddled with errors, oversights, and miscalculations. One wonders if those people involved had actually used some of the stuff, and seen the consequences.

All things considered, I think that the ELH could (and should) have been much tighter and more carefully evaluated before publication. It reminds me of a Microsoft product - who care how many bugs it still has, we have to get it on the market NOW!

But it still has many valuable contributions, and I was fascinated (or horrified) by many of the things I found there.

I consider it a work in progress; hopefully, by the time any of those I game with get to the point where the book is needed, there will be enough material here and elsewhere to intellegently suppliment it that the game can proceed.


And to address the meat of the topic: I feel that the book's mistreatment of the Sorcerer class is both obvious and unfortunate, but I don't think it has much impact on any character other than a single classed, 21+ level sorcerer. And if you've had the patience and dedication to be playing one of those, well, I salute you - you're a better man than I.

 

[Johno]

But it still has many valuable contributions, and I was fascinated (or horrified) by many of the things I found there.

You sum up my feelings about the ELH very well. Indeed there are many valuable gems of inspiration in the book, it just makes the glitches so much more frustrating.

 

[James McMurray]

I'll grant you that no mention is made of specialists. Obviously an oversight. One of many. Come on now, the book is riddled with errors, oversights, and miscalculations. One wonders if those people involved had actually used some of the stuff, and seen the consequences.

Why is it "obviously an oversight"? Couldn't it be that its a case of "if it isn't mentioned, it doesn't happen"? I think the example of Szass Tam should count for something. If you want to ignore evidence in order to support your own side, you might want to find another method of argument.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Incorrect: the wizard learns two new spells every level. And you think the wizard will not encounter any scrolls with unknown spells in 100 levels of adventuring?

OK, an oversight. They do get their two new spells.

But the point is this: The number of spells an epic wizard can know is only limited by the number of spells in existance (or, more precisely, spells on his spell list and not of his forbidden schools). But that's also true for a non-epic wizard, even for a 1st-level wizard (except non-epic wizards maybe don't have access to all spell levels).

So the role of sorcerer and wizard don't change: the wizard is still the one with many spells, but who must prepare them, and the sorcerer still has only a fixed amount of known spells but can cast them spontaneously.

The sorcerer has in fact an advantage: he can downplay his disadvantage by gaining additional spells via a feat, while the wizard still can't cast them spontaneously! They can also erase their metamagic disadvantages with the automatic metamagic feats.


But what do you propose? Give sorcerers a feat that they can learn spells like wizards do, via scrolls? That would make the wizard obsolete? Increasing the number of known spells you get per feat? That would be OK I think, but that won't change the nature of sorcerers. Automatically granting sorcerers new known spells after 20th? That could work, but you have to be _very_ cautious, or you end up with the sorcerer as the much more powerful class.

I'll grant you that no mention is made of specialists. Obviously an oversight. One of many. Come on now, the book is riddled with errors, oversights, and miscalculations. One wonders if those people involved had actually used some of the stuff, and seen the consequences.

No, it's no oversight. They determined that the feat grants you one single slot. If your ability score's high enough, you get the bonus feat. But you won't get another to use with your specialist school, nor do clerics get their domain slot (see the drow cleric for that).
They did that because it would make the feat much stronger for certain classes, and would severly unbalance it.

So it seems that the poeple involved had actually used some of the stuff, and seen the consequences. But you have not, or you would not complain that sorcerers get the shaft, and in the same discussion demand that they empower wizards.

 

[Oni]

Can't a sorcerer however spontaneously cast any Epic Level Spell they have learned. Can they not learn as many Epic Level Spells as then can afford to create. With the correct type of spells would this not be a large advantage over casters that need to prepare their epic level spells, where then can only have access at any given time to at most as many different epic spells as they have epic spell slots. The epic sorcerer has access to any epic spell he knows and is not ruled by the stricture of only being able to cast it once having only one slot dedicated to it.

 

[Caliber]

Unless you mean extremely metamagic-ed spells Oni, I think you are wrong.

If I remember correctly, I am pretty sure that all epic spells are cast more or less spontaneously. You have as many epic spells per day as your knowledge skills dictate, and any epic spell you know and want to cast is fine.

On a different topic, note that psions continue to gain powers as they go up levels (I think they do at least.) I think physhic warriors do as well.

The problem with giving a sorceror more spells is that eventually he will match the wizard in the amount known. And with feats like automatic quickening, who is going to have the advantage?

 

[Celtavian]

Re

The Sorcerer can create epic spells just like anyone else according to his or her Knowledge (Arcana). I am not sure how casting them is handled for a sorcerer though since they really did kind of give little thought to the sorcerer class when making the ELH.


Wizards have a serious advantage post-20 though in regards to researching spells. When a sorcerer is pretty much stuck with what he or she has chosen, the wizard can research all kinds of new spells such as a more powerful stoneskin spell or a more powerful Globe of invulnerability. The sorcerer can only do the same by blowing wishes and using up 5,000 or so xp per wish.

Wizards have the advantage post 20 because of research and variety.

 

[Oni]

"Once an epic spell is developed, the caster knows the spell. A developed epic spell becomes an indelible part of the caster and may be prepared without a spellbook (if a wizard is the caster). Characters who cast spells spontaneously, such as sorcerers, can cast a developed epic spell by using any open epic spell slot. Druids, clerics, and similar spellcasters can likewise prepare epic spells using epic spell slots. A spellcaster can prepare or cast any epic spell she knows as many times per day as she has available epic spell slots." ELH pg.72

 

[Caliber]

Sure go ahead. Prove me wrong by quoting from the book. Just shut down what was otherwise a fun engagement of mental activity.

Thanks for the quote man.

 

[mkletch]

This goes back, in my mind, to the discussions of the sorcerer at the dawn of 3E. The flavor of the class is just wrong. If the sorcerer had a completely flexible, point-based system like the psion, it would have beeter met the expectations people have for it. While it looks like the sorcerer gets more spell/day, a specialist wizard gets close. At this point, the sorcerer simply becomes the scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz, who only wants a brain. Then he could learn more spells...

Sorcerer is no more screwed in the ELH than in the PHB.

-Fletch!