Epic Level Math Test: Fight 1 (Iconics vs the Efreet!)

[LightPhoenix]

I'm not certain the fifth character would add too much to the analytical side of things at this point anyway.

Based on this write-up, it didn't seem to me like straight-up numerical conditional bonuses played that much of a role as far as dealing damage went. Perhaps that's the nature of the Cleric; mostly they seem to help with ameliorating the damage taken. Perhaps it was the nature of the encounter, it's hard to tell.

What seemed to be more useful were secondary effects, such as stun and prone. I wonder if it's possible to quantify those effects in any meaningful manner, so as to approximate mathematically if they really do offset the raw numbers.

To spitball a bit, rather than look at a creature in per-round averages, it might be more useful to look at a creature in terms of per-encounter averages. That might allow a better approximation in the abstract realm. For example, stun prevents a round of attacks, lowering a creatures damage/encounter. Still quite complex, but a little more manageable than running full encounters.

 

[Hussar]

Stalker0 - a suggestion for the future.

Maptools or OpenRPG allows you to save the message log and I know Maptools has a framework on the boards that allows you to run epic level combat with all the pertinent information displayed.

It would save you a HELL of a lot of time. Just make up your four iconic PC's in CharacterTool, import them into Maptool and you could run fights as fast as you could click macros.

Everything gets saved as an HTML document, so, it's pretty easy to post.

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

Kick ass write up, Stalker! I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this one.

Also, IME, no group has more than one leader, and that person is often goaded into it, but, once again, that's just IME.

Actually, the fifth "iconic" would have to be a striker... more parties have two or more strikers than those that have two or more leaders, in my experience.

That's interesting to hear. In the several games I have played (with a core group of five players and an additional five coming and going) when we have had five PCs we have had 2 leaders more often than any other role. Defenders follow and then strikers. I've never seen a party with 2 controllers.

A group with both a laser cleric (for bad ass healing) and a taclord (for bad ass buffing) is extremely effective. I've seen that combination twice in about seven or eight different party configurations.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's interesting to hear. In the several games I have played (with a core group of five players and an additional five coming and going) when we have had five PCs we have had 2 leaders more often than any other role. Defenders follow and then strikers. I've never seen a party with 2 controllers.

A group with both a laser cleric (for bad ass healing) and a taclord (for bad ass buffing) is extremely effective. I've seen that combination twice in about seven or eight different party configurations.

yea, I sat down to an LFR game at 11th level with my half elf swordmage (paragon multi wizard) 2 wizards, an invoker, and a Bard (multi into both warlock and wizard)... cry when you see this group, they need your pitty...My 2w attacks where some of the most damagining... and of 3 of us with wizaard at wills 2 had scorching burst...

 

[Hellzon]

That's interesting to hear. In the several games I have played (with a core group of five players and an additional five coming and going) when we have had five PCs we have had 2 leaders more often than any other role. Defenders follow and then strikers. I've never seen a party with 2 controllers.

Lemme do a quick rundown of what's in the three PbP:s I'm in.

The one I run: Two strikers originally. (Avenger, Rogue, Fighter, Bard, Invoker.) Eventually, a sixth player joined with an Artificer, so they're currently doubled up on strikers and leaders.

Second one: Two strikers (Sorcerer, Warlock, Fighter, Cleric (laser spec), Wizard).

Third: One of each, plus a mad hybrid of leader/striker. (Warlord, Paladin, Druid, Sorcerer, Half-elf Bard with Sorcerer/Warlock paragon multiclass)

I'd say it's even between doubling up on strikers or leaders, but there's a lot of player crossover between the 4E PbP games on RPGnet, so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions.

As for my face-to-face group, I can't be bothered. Too many players, and it's rare that everyone's present.

 

[Hussar]

I smell a poll. Just to scratch my curiousity itch What's your Fifth?

 

[Jhaelen]

Okay, I've finally found the time to look into this. Thanks for all the work you put into this, Stalker0!

I think it's telling that even with the bad dice rolling and the impaired cleric the fight went so well.

I'd love to see more test fights, though! Has anyone else made some test fights?

As others have mentioned, I'd have preferred a test fight using five characters. My vote would have been for an archer ranger. But I think, simply reusing one of the existing iconic PCs would work, as well.

The main advantage, imho, would be that you can use the example encounters straight out of the MMs and/or official adventure modules. Assuming the developers put some thought into them, they should be at least somewhat balanced. When using an encounter from a module you'd even get an encounter map for the fight!

I've compiled a list of the sample encounters from the MM's. Maybe, you could use or adapt one of them for further tests:

MM1 p.50 (33,750 xp):
1 dragonborn death knight (L25 elite soldier)   1x 14,000
1 fell wyvern (L24 skirmisher)                  1x  6,050
1 great flameskull (L24 artillery)              1x  6,050 
6 abyssal ghoul myrmidons (L23 minions)         6x  1,275

MM1 p.77 (30,600 xp):
1 elder blue dragon (L20 solo artillery)        1x 14,000
2 thunderhawks (L22 elite soldier)              2x  8,300

MM1 p.83 (30,350 xp):
1 elder red dragon (L22 solo soldier)           1x 20,750
2 fire archon ash disciples (L20 artillery)     2x  2,800
2 fire giants (L18 soldier)                     2x  2,000

MM1 p.121 (33,800 xp):
1 death titan (L25 elite brute)                 1x 14,000
2 death giants (L22 brute)                      2x  4,150
1 voidsoul specter (L23 lurker)                 1x  5,100
1 deathpriest hierophant (L21 elite controller) 1x  6,400

MM1 p.210 (33,800 xp):
1 deathpriest hierophant (L21 elite controller) 1x  6,400
3 blood fiend abominations (L23 soldier)        3x  5,100
1 aspect of Orcus (L24 elite brute)             1x 12,100

MM1 p.218 (32,500 xp):
2 rakshasa dread knights (L24 soldiers)         2x  6,050
2 fell wyverns (L24 skirmisher)                 2x  6,050
1 war devil (L22 brute)                         1x  4,050

MM2 p.10 (30,350 xp):
3 angels of supremacy (L24 soldier)             3x  6,050
1 deva fallen star (L26 artillery)              1x  9,000
1 tormenting ghost (L21 controller (MM1 p.117)) 1x  3,200

MM2 p.27 (34,750 xp):
1 beholder eye of chaos (L25 elite artillery)   1x 14,000
1 chaos hydra (L22 solo brute)                  1x 20,750

MM2 p.50 (34,400 xp):
1 aspect of Demogorgon (L25 elite controller)   1x 14,000
2 glabrezus (L23 elite brute, MM1 p.54)         2x 10,200

MM2 p.135 (34,000 xp):
1 iron golem juggernaut (L26 elite soldier)     1x 18,000
1 storm gorgon (L26 skirmisher, MM1 p.143)      1x  9,000
1 djinn skylord (L25 controller)                1x  7,000

L24 encounter for 4 PCs: 24,200 xp (instead of 30,250 xp)
L25 encounter for 4 PCs: 28,000 xp (instead of 35,000 xp)

I'd also love to conduct some tests myself - I think should have some spare time over the holidays. However, apparently, the free version of the Character Builder doesn't allow me to load the iconics

Could someone please post the text-version of the iconics?

 

[Storminator]

I've recorded big fights like this in other contexts, and I think you should see if you can get a friend or two to help you. If one person takes the monsters, one person takes the PCs, and a third records the results, it's easier, quicker, and much more fun.

Great job tho.

PS