Epic Level: Worse than Role Master ?

[Oni]

You know I must say that I am definately looking forward to the epic level rules, and will purchase when I can. First of all I admit a certain weakness for buying game books just because I like to see how the rules work, and I am mightly curious at how they are going to handle the rules for epic level play, both in the area of balancing things and whats being done to warrant making a whole new book. Second I've never had a character higher than 9th level (closing in on 10 though ) and I am curious in general about higher level gaming. I have found that there is a definate difference between playing low in mid levels, both mechanically and from a role playing point of view (for instance my character has become older more reserved and more seasoned) and I wonder about the step beyond that. Lastly just about any decent rpg book is a least minable for a few good ideas, and is usually entertaining (for me at least). So while I might never use them, I'm looking forward to them and I'm thinking they will be a worthwhile addition to my library (in spite of the example NPC that has been given up, I have my qualms with that, but I've already stated then way back on page one or two of this lengthy thread).

 

[WizarDru]

I'm not entirely sure I understand what the fuss exactly is about. Several folks have already pointed out that even if WOTC printed new versions of the PHB with epic-level rules in them and sent a letter to every single owner of the current versions saying "THIS IS THE OFFICIAL WAY TO PLAY! YOU WILL OBEY!" that it would actually affect anyone's game, unless they wanted it to.

Examining someone's level 71 NPC based on a card from an expansion of Magic: The Gathering hardly constitutes a lengthy examination of the material contained within the unreleased ELH. If the issue is that this specific character is being used to judge the ELH, then it's irrelevant.

If, on the other hand, play above 10th level is being refered to as 'munchkiny' (and I agree with Monte Cook on the use of the term, incidentally), then I think someone's missing the point. A 20th-level wizard is not threatened by twenty non-classed, non-advanced goblins. Why, nothing short of the Tarrasque threatens them, right? Do yourself a favor and ready Piratecat's story hour.

High-level play is what players work towards. It's not something to be embarassed about, but excited about. One doesn't open the PHB and look at Prismatic Spray and think 'Gosh, I hope I never get high enough in levels to cast that!' It's what a wizard strives for. This principle applies to all characters in all classes.

Is high-level play the same as low-level play? No, it's not. But it doesn't have to be about being a mindless powergamer, either. The same level of threat and elements of danger can exist at higher levels, and without saving the world every other Tuesday. I'm finding DM'ing higher level players to be an interesting experience that requires a totally different design ethic, but it's still an awful lot of fun.

I've yet to see any reason that Epic Level play will be any different. Epic level play can be every bit as engaging, dangerous and filled with RP-ing opportunities as low-level play, if that's your desire. The system is merely a means to an end, providing mechanics to allow more rewarding play for those lucky enough to reach such lofty heights. YMMV.

 

[Arg-ha Lardgoa]

I would to just point out that this example was not an official ELH example, but some Magic: The Gathering web page on the WotC site. Not knowing anything about M:tG. This was his personal opinions, Though with some insight into the rules.

 

[James McMurray]

I type ~137 wpm with 97% accuracy

Now, if only you could think as quickly as you type, we'd be much better off, and be in the midst of a seriously entertaining logical discussion about the merits and flaws of high level play, not some silly personal attacks against people who don't play the game the same way you do.

 

[Simon Magalis]

Re: What happened?

People are sensitive.

Once again I must say it.... WOW. Who is this guy? Anyhow, I think it is funny to think back about arguing with people who you don't know about things that don't matter ten minutes later and laugh. Of course, I don't really argue. I just read and laugh and sometimes I show the post to my four month old son and he laughs too. WOW. Someone needs to start a Bothered About Hijacked Threads (BAHT)... hmmm catchy huh?

 

[your_mother]

Use these controls to insert vBcode

Kamikaze Midget writes, "The ELH will be enjoyed by people who have fun with characters that can officially kill Elminster. Heck, I might run a campaign all about that."

And if that were the premise for an Epic Level Game, I may even join in, assuming that the game world would progress from there (eventually) with new, low-level characters trying to deal with that world.

Kamikaze Midget writes, "No one's making anyone play any sort of campaign they don't want to. This is very silly to be belittling other people for playing in a different style."

Yeah, it is. I'm glad you could appreciate that.

Kamikaze Midget writes, "Just because people like epic levels doesn't make them too stupid to play Diablo. Just because people don't like epic levels doesn't make them elitist snobs. Gosh, this is ridiculous."

Ha!

Heretic Apostate writes, (basically) 'Munchkins are everywhere, they contribute good money to the hobby and have a good time doing it. Do not drive them from the hobby.'

Yeah, but don't you think it's getting just a little out of hand? I mean come on, +10 weapons and armor? Do you remember the threads here about whether Deities should be given Statistics in the game or just left as 'extremely powerful individuals, not to be trifled with' etc.?

PenguinKing writes, "Depends--if they cheat up the wazoo, then proceed to go around bragging about how "l33t" they are and how much serious players suck, they deserve to get their virtual arses kicked."

Yeah, but that's true of anyone who brags about how "l33t" they are, wherever they are encountered.

Heretic Apostate writes (on cheating in video games), "All I care about is, if I have had a very stressful day, I want to be able to tear apart my opponents with my bare hands."

Yeah, like cranking up Doom after a long day at school, turning on the cheats and going after everything with a Chainsaw & the volume turned up. I see your point here. Also, you say "if it's someone else's gaming group why should it be anyone else's business?" And it's not, really. But it becomes my business when they start shoving it down my throat. Also, it becomes my business when I have to wade through it on a consistent basis, in products from d20 companies and Wizards. It (the stat blocks, drawn out character descriptions, hype) is wasted space in books that could have otherwise been cut (to reduce the cost of the book) or could contain more useful information.

Zarrock writes, "I think it's a god-awful and worthless term..."

Yeah, I think picking on the little people is god-awful and worthless too. Dwarves on the other hand ...

Fenes writes, "I'll never use it. I'll never run a campaign where I'd need such NPCs ... if I need high-level NPCs just to appear and give pointers (which I consider bad form, but can be funny from times to times, like sightseeing in a novel), then I don't need stats."

I agree with you completely. Very well said.

Oni writes, "I am curious in general about higher level gaming. I have found that there is a definate difference between playing low in mid levels, both mechanically and from a role playing point of view"

Yeah, I have to admit that on one hand, I am curious-in a morbid way-as to how the book will turn out. I will probably at least pick it up and page through it, just to get some idea of how ludicrous it really is. Now, if it's anything like the character in the URL (thank you, Arg-ha Lardgoa for pointing out that it is in a Magic: The Addiction portion of the WotC page, it's given me some peace of mind); if it is like that character then I will choke back the vomit and never touch the book again.

WizarDru writes, "I'm not entirely sure I understand what the fuss exactly is about. Several folks have already pointed out that even if WOTC printed new versions of the PHB with epic-level rules in them and sent a letter to every single owner of the current versions saying 'THIS IS THE OFFICIAL WAY TO PLAY! YOU WILL OBEY!' that it would actually affect anyone's game, unless they wanted it to."

Hey, if they did that then I would be highly impressed and shut my fat yap. Unfortunately, that's not what they are doing, and what you see is what you get.

WizarDru writes, "Examining someone's level 71 NPC based on a card from an expansion of Magic: The Gathering hardly constitutes a lengthy examination of the material contained within the unreleased ELH. If the issue is that this specific character is being used to judge the ELH, then it's irrelevant."

Good point. I hope it wasn't assumed that I was disrespecting the Epic Level Handbook in my first post. Rather, I was expressing my disgust at the character that was presented as 'created based on the ELH with some of my own extrapolations' or whatever.

McMurray writes, "Now, if only you could think as quickly as you type, we'd be much better off, and be in the midst of a seriously entertaining logical discussion about the merits and flaws of high level play, not some silly personal attacks against people who don't play the game the same way you do."

Thank you for yet another useless personal attack. You saw an opening, you took it; don't you feel good about yourself now, sunshine?

Magalis writes, "I think it is funny to think back about arguing with people who you don't know about things that don't matter ten minutes later and laugh."

I couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[PenguinKing]

I'm still not seeing what your point is, y_m - exactly how are any of the scenarios to raise going to negatively impact either yourself personally or any other roleplayer on the planet, with the possible exception of the guy stuck DMing for his whiny eleven-year-old brother?

(And kindly get off your high horse - you can't go about taking personal shots at everybody who disagrees with you, then attempt take the moral high road when they return the favor; it just makes you look rather foolish without accomplishing much of anything.)

- Sir Bob.

P.S. Nih!

 

[Heretic Apostate]

Re: Use these controls to insert vBcode

:snip:
Heretic Apostate writes, (basically) 'Munchkins are everywhere, they contribute good money to the hobby and have a good time doing it. Do not drive them from the hobby.'

Yeah, but don't you think it's getting just a little out of hand? I mean come on, +10 weapons and armor? Do you remember the threads here about whether Deities should be given Statistics in the game or just left as 'extremely powerful individuals, not to be trifled with' etc.?
:snip:

Sure I do. But then, I also think CORE D&D is a little over the top some times. I'd have preferred something a little more pseudo-realistic. Not exactly GURPS, but something between GURPS, D&D 3E, SWRPG, Wheel of Time RPG, Grim'n'Gritty, and several other genres.

Do I complain about these people running around with their "munchkin" +3 swords? Heck no! Let 'em have their fun. They're picking up their portion of the bill, why should I complain?

It's all a matter of relativity. I don't think wizards should be able to cast spells that can level towers. I don't think fighters should be able to kill dragons the size of a 747. I don't think someone should be able to take a dozen hits with a sword and still survive, no matter what mechanic you're using.

Given all that, I also enjoy an occasional uber-munchkin character. After all, it's fun to play all-powerful whenever you need to work off some steam.

The question, however, is will the ELH integrate the rules flawlessly? Will it be possible to play without fighting yet another tarrasque? Will there be enough challenges? And this goes double for the deities book, if rumors are true and it contains rules on how to become deities.

 

[your_mother]

McDonalds Fries is People

PenguinKing writes," I'm still not seeing what your point is, y_m"

If you scroll back through all of this garbage and look at my post on page 3 called "Tip of the Iceberg" you will find the core of my argument. It addresses your questions.

PenguinKing writes, "And kindly get off your high horse - you can't go about taking personal shots at everybody who disagrees with you, then attempt take the moral high road when they return the favor; it just makes you look rather foolish without accomplishing much of anything."

Maybe if you weren't so busy working on insulting me and would instead read what I've written, you might have gotten my point in the first place. Instead, here we are: eight pages of what (for the most part) is toilet paper.

Heretic Apostate writes, "The question, however, is will the ELH integrate the rules flawlessly? Will it be possible to play without fighting yet another tarrasque? Will there be enough challenges? And this goes double for the deities book, if rumors are true and it contains rules on how to become deities."

Yeah, and can they do all this in a tasteful, tactful manner, without endangering the credibility of future products? Or will the power levels merely escalate out of control until finally we?re all playing Exalted, but with different dice?

 

[Olive]

one of the nice things about the way DnD 3e is being run is that just cos the rules are in a book doesn't mean that they have to be used. Remember rule zero, and the CAP books...

I like the fact that these rules will exist, even if I doubt I'll use them. Like Oni, I'll probably buy the book to read and dream about.

anyway, time to go...