Epic Magic Big Thread

[Sepulchrave II]

Another iteration of the feats. It addresses most of the major loopholes - as you pointed out, Cheiro, a smart player will probably find a way to circumvent them. Let me know if I'm obsesssing about the wording of these feats

Changed the name of the sorcerer feat again - Epic Spell Discovery sounds too pedestrian and Epic Spell Revelation too religous. Retained the idea of revelation/epiphany in the flavor text - I've always liked the idea of demonic or draconic gurus for sorcerers. Dropped idea of half subsequent costs - they can still potentially develop any spell which uses the seed, though.

I made the paragraph on associated seeds much more class-explicit, but without barring PrCs. Probably missed something, though.


Epic Spell Insight [Epic][Epic Magic]
You have penetrated one of the mysteries of epic magic. This knowledge may arise from personal intuition, or through divulgence by a powerful magical sponsor such as a noted dragon, demon or celestial.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to spontaneously cast 9th level arcane spells.
Benefit: You gain two epic spell slots. Choose one seed: you have intuited or have been granted an understanding of its inner workings, and have gained a single epic arcane spell which uses this seed as its base seed. You do not need to spend time or pay any development costs to acquire the spell; you may develop further spells which use this seed as their base seed, but must devote the time and resources normally required in this process. You may cast any epic spell that you know with an open epic spell slot.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take it, you gain two spell slots and insight into another seed, and you gain an epic spell associated with that seed. Each time you take this feat, the number of prerequisite Spellcraft ranks increases by +3.
Special: You may develop compound spells (epic spells which manipulate more than one seed) provided that you possess the Epic Spell Insight feat with regard to all of the seeds involved.


Epic Spellcasting [Epic][Epic Magic]
You may develop, prepare and cast epic spells.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcana, nature or religion) 24 ranks, Spellcraft 24 ranks, ability to prepare and cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: You gain 1 epic spell slot. You may develop epic spells using any combination of seeds without penalty, provided that those seeds are considered associated for you. You may also develop spells which incorporate nonassociated seeds, but using a nonassociated seed always incurs a +20 modifier to the spell's Spellcraft Prerequisite. Whether a seed is considered asscociated or nonassociated, is dependent on your nonepic spellcasting ability; see Associated Seeds, below, for details. If you normally use a spellbook to prepare spells, you do not require one to prepare epic spells: they are an indelible part of your magical repertoire.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once. Each time you take it, you gain another epic spell slot. Each time you take this feat, the number of prerequisite Spellcraft ranks increases by +3.
Special: If you can cast both 9th level arcane and divine spells, you can choose whether an individual epic spell which you develop is arcane or divine in nature.


Associated Seeds

Wizards and Wizard PrCs
If you have 24 or more ranks in knowledge (arcana), and normally prepare and cast 9th-level arcane spells, all seeds except the [ensoul], [heal] and [life] seeds are considered associated for you.

Clerics and Cleric PrCs
If you have 24 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion), and can cast miracle as a divine spell, the following seeds are considered associated for you:

• [Call] and [summon], provided that they target creatures of your alignment, your deity's alignment, or creatures otherwise directly associated with your deity.
• [Banish], provided that it targets creatures of an alignment directly opposed to you or that of your deity.
• [Blast], provided that it employs only [divine] energy

Other seeds are also considered associated, depending on whether you normally channel positive or negative energy to turn or rebuke undead:

• If you normally channel positive energy to turn undead, the [create], [heal] and [life] seeds are considered associated for you.
• If you normally channel negative energy to rebuke undead, the [afflict], [harrow] and [slay] seeds are considered associated for you.

Druids and Druid PrCs
If you have 24 or more ranks in Knowledge (nature), and can cast summon nature's ally IX as a divine spell, the following seeds are considered associated for you:

• [Ensoul], [fortify creature] and [weather].
• [Call], [compel] and [summon], provided that they target animals, magical beasts, feys, plant creatures, vermin or elementals.
• [Polymorph], provided that it effects a transformation into an animal, magical beast, fey, plant creature, vermin or elemental.
• [Blast] or [Field], provided that they deal only the following energy types: [cold], [electricity], [fire], [bludgeoning], [piercing], [slashing] or [divine].
• [Harrow], provided that it is a poison or disease effect.

Notes: Er, changed my mind about poison again. Sorry. [Ensoul] is the best name that I could come up with for a hypothetical seed which embraces reincarnation and awaken

Edit: cleared up cut & paste errors.

 

[Cheiromancer]

A couple of little things:

• Does Epic Spell Insight give 2 more epic spell slots each time it is taken?

• Is there a one word name that could replace [fortify creature]? Maybe [boost]?

• If poison is moving back to [harrow], then its probably ability damage, not hit point damage, right? There probably is a mechanical relation between poison and disease; two doses of ability damage (1 minute apart) and indefinite numbers of ability damage 1 day apart. Each with a Fort save to negate.

• I'm thinking that I can probably extend [blast] to [field] by the analogy

instantaneous:1 round::swift action:1 full round.​

I.e. By +6 SP. And then add duration factors from there. The area affected by a wall of fire can probably be related to the area filled by a fireball and/or lightning bolt. Dunno if it will work, but I'm thinking along those lines. [Blast] and [field] can be separate seeds, but I'd be happier if I can see a deeper unity between them.

• Do you own Complete Mage? I was looking at dreaded form of the eye tyrant, a dragonshape analogue, and I noticed that the spell-like abilities (the eye rays) can be used only once each, and only 1/round. Some similar restriction might be necessary for the [polymorph] seed.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Does Epic Spell Insight give 2 more epic spell slots each time it is taken?

Yep. Fixed that.

Is there a one word name that could replace [fortify creature]? Maybe [boost]?

[Augment]? [Fortify] could then be reserved for objects.

• If poison is moving back to [harrow], then its probably ability damage, not hit point damage, right? There probably is a mechanical relation between poison and disease; two doses of ability damage (1 minute apart) and indefinite numbers of ability damage 1 day apart. Each with a Fort save to negate.

Nice thought. Energy drain forces a save for each level after one day. Can it be included?

I'm thinking that I can probably extend [blast] to [field] by the analogy
instantaneous:1 round::swift action:1 full round.

Durations are odd. They seem to have an almost cyclical relationship sometimes. Instantaneous increasing through to permanent, but also with an instantaneous/permanent boundary - like the international date line. To change an instantaneous effect to a 1 round effect should entail an increase in SP; but to change a permanent effect to an instantaneous effect should as well.

I think if you're going to draw an analogy with casting times then

instantaneous:1 round::immediate:1 full round

might be closer. Dunno; we haven't really touched on immediate actions. I guess you could add a factor to a spell to make it castable as an immediate action. It'd be crazy high, though. A super - contingency effect. [Contingency] with sweeping flexibility would be +25SP as a secondary-seed equivalent. It would be the highest of any general factors, by far. It might be better accessed through a feat - Rapid Disintegrator, or whatever.

Immediate-action spells would change the landscape of epic magic entirely at the higher levels. You see the wizard casting a swift-action [destroy], and [blast] him with your immediate divine wrath before he gets it off. Epic Skill Focus (Concentration), would become very desirable indeed.

It's actually a very logical progression, though. At a certain point, offensive spells would have to become immediate to compete. But where is that point?

• Do you own Complete Mage? I was looking at dreaded form of the eye tyrant, a dragonshape analogue, and I noticed that the spell-like abilities (the eye rays) can be used only once each, and only 1/round. Some similar restriction might be necessary for the [polymorph] seed.

I guess WotC are reining in the range of the new polymorph subschool a little. What level is it, though? I don't have the book.

 

[Cheiromancer]

• Do you own Complete Mage? I was looking at dreaded form of the eye tyrant, a dragonshape analogue, and I noticed that the spell-like abilities (the eye rays) can be used only once each, and only 1/round. Some similar restriction might be necessary for the [polymorph] seed.

I guess WotC are reining in the range of the new polymorph subschool a little. What level is it, though? I don't have the book.

It's 8th level. Swift action, 1 round/level (D), personal - the usual parameters. Unyielding form of inevitable death turns you into a marut (also 8th); you don't get any of the 1/day or 1/week abilities, and the 1/day abilities can only be used once. Form of the threefold beast (5th) turns you into a chimera, aspect of the icy hunter a winter wolf (4th), and shape of the hellspawned stalker a hell hound (3rd).

[edit]

It appears to me that the beholder form spell couldn't be set any lower than 8th level since it includes disintegrate in its effects. A marut (CR 15) is similar in power to a beholder (CR 13), and couldn't be a 9th level spell since it is quite a bit weaker than the mature red dragon (CR 18 WotC, KR 24) of 9th level. Based on the benchmark of a beholder = 8th level, you get 2 CR = 1 SL. I.e. a chimera is CR 7, and so chimera form is (13-7)/2 = 3 spell levels less than beholder form. A winter wolf is CR 5, and so is (13 - 5)/2 = 4 levels less. A hell hound is CR 3, and so is (13 -3)/2 = 5 levels less.

In kernel form this is CR * 3 + 9 = SP, although the marut is an 8th level spell, not a 9th level spell. According to this progression, however, dragonshape is very anomalous; 63 SP, which is 3 points into epic territory. According to the WotC CR of 18. If a mature adult red dragon is really KR 24, then this is 81 SP (kernel) which is SP 45. That seems too much.

If we are replicating these spells with an epic seed, the considerations about when disintegrate is available shouldn't be a problem. And so I'd suggest we retain the formula of CR * 2 - 30 = SP that can be derived from dragonshape. This would mean that turning into a marut (or weaker creature) would be essentially free; you would have to "pad out" the seed to get the total value up to 24. Probably combine it with [augment]. While you are in the form, you can't cast spells, even with Natural Spell, so I think it is fair.

If you want to use the CM progression, the formula would be CR * 3 - 27 = SP. The kernel value of 60 corresponds to an epic spell of SP 24, so you just subtract 36 from a kernel formula to get the seed formula. Or add 36 to extrapolate from epic spells into non-epic levels (where 1 Spell Level = 6 SP).

I'm not sure whether to retain the limits on the uses of SLAs. I've used +8 SP before as a "repeated effects" factor, but that was so that a holy aura could blind multiple attackers. With beholder form it would be 20 rounds to 200 minutes for +4, and to make it last 9 times as long would be another +16. 13 * 2 - 30 + 8 (repeated) + 20 (duration) = 24 SP Is assuming the form of a beholder (with unlimited use of SLAs) for 30 hours a decent entry-level epic level spell? Your version of the seed is 10 points less powerful than the one I refer to.

[/edit]

I guess you could add a factor to a spell to make it castable as an immediate action. It'd be crazy high, though. A super - contingency effect. [Contingency] with sweeping flexibility would be +25SP as a secondary-seed equivalent. It would be the highest of any general factors, by far.

Is immediate that high? In kernel terms, that would be +4 spell levels. Are there any immediate action spells that have standard action versions at a lower level? Or at least that can be related to such spells through a break-down into factors and known kernels? I imagine feather fall is a weakened form of fly and levitate, but it's probably aberrant.

There's a 4th level power word in CM that reduces a creature of 10 hp or less to -9 hp. No roll required to stabilize. My PW formula (as applied to the non-epic domain; (SL * 6) + (HP / 6) – 9) says that there should therefore be a 5th level arcane death spell that, on a failed save, reduces its target to a stable -9 hit points. That sounds reasonable, don't you think?

I like the sound of [augment] as opposed to [fortify]. I'll try to get some work done on energy drain, poison, and cause disease this weekend. There's a 5th level arcane spell in CM that conveys mummy rot (cryptwarden's grasp). I'll have to keep an eye on it as I try to generalize the other spells.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

According to this progression, however, dragonshape is very anomalous; 63 SP, which is 3 points into epic territory. According to the WotC CR of 18. If a mature adult red dragon is really KR 24, then this is 81 SP (kernel) which is SP 45. That seems too much.

Agreed. We should probably reduce the target CR by 2; flexibility factors can be included to make the more powerful/infrequent-use SLAs available. It's a shame to break up [polymorph]'s simplicity, but it was kind of inevitable. 9th-level benchmarks are always dangerous - especially those designed to address the issues of a broken suite!

I'm conflicted about the CRs of dragons. The received wisdom is that their CR is set arbitrariy low; UK's rating seems to support this. The problem is that, IME, dragons' CRs are about right: their abilities never seem to synergize terribly well. :Shrug:

[Blast] and [field] can be separate seeds, but I'd be happier if I can see contrive realize a deeper unity between them.

Fixed it for you. Ah, the old invention/discovery paradox.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I've been looking at the pattern of various feats which have been floated - those that provide indirect mitigation or free factors to epic spells.

I'd suggest something like this, as a guideline:

FEAT PREREQUISITES	        FEAT SPECIFICITY
	                               Generic   	Moderate	Specific
Easy	                              6	                12	             24
Moderate	                    10                 20                 30
Strict	                               12	          24	             40

Exactly how we determine the strictness or specificity will vary, and I think a certain amount of latitude is desirable in any event. I'm thinking in terms of linear factors, here. Let me know if you think these numbers are reasonable: I'm totally open to revising them.

AMC is absolutely generic, of course, but also offers a whole range of other benefits.

Two-feat synergies (highly specific, strict prerequisites) might offer a total of 80 points in factors. Does that seem reasonable, or too much?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Random Nwm-esque feat.

Jade Banisher [Epic][Epic Magic]
You specialize in sending despised extraplanars back to their proper places.
Prerequisites: Epic Spellcasting, Spellcraft 27 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 27 ranks, wildshape class ability.
Benefits: [Banish] is always considered an associated seed for you when you develop spells which target creatures of the outsider type with the [extraplanar] subtype who are present on the Prime Material Plane. Creatures who fail their save and are banished may not re-enter the Prime of their own volition, and are not subject to nonepic spells which call or summon them for one year. Epic spells incorporating the [call] or [summon] seed must make a successful opposed caster level check against the original spell which incorporated the [banish] seed in order to be effective.


Notes: unweighed.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'm not sure what you are agreeing to with regard to the [polymorph] seed. Do you want to go with the CR * 3 progression or the CR * 2 progression? Do you want to use the WotC CRs, or the (higher) KR values? Do you want dragonshape to come out as exactly a 9th level spell, or almost a 10th level spell, or a little more powerful yet?

With regard to feats. Hmmm. In the prior arrangement they could take 3 AMC and get 3 levels of spontaneous metamagic and -6 SP on all their spells. Now they could get 2 AMC and 1 easy/generic feat to get 2 levels of spontaneous metamagic and -6 SP on all their spells. (Or if not AMC, then something whose power/flexbility is such that it might as well be AMC; a standard codicil for these sorts of arguments).

That looks fine; an easy way of putting a wedge between metamagic specialists and seed specialists. I'm worried about them getting too far ahead of the curve, though. In the prior arrangement there was 4 AMC possible every six levels, or -1.33 per level. With -6 SP that totally generic feat would have an escalating prerequisite of about +4 SP each time it is taken.

I'm not sure how a generic feat with strict prerequisites would look, though.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I'm not sure what you are agreeing to with regard to the [polymorph] seed. Do you want to go with the CR * 3 progression or the CR * 2 progression? Do you want to use the WotC CRs, or the (higher) KR values? Do you want dragonshape to come out as exactly a 9th level spell, or almost a 10th level spell, or a little more powerful yet?

I dunno. I think that KR is preferable at epic levels; but KR 11 seems weak for a Marut (16 x 2/3); CR 15 is way too high. I'd peg them at the half-way point - CR 13 - and call them weak for their challenge level. Don't know about beholders - KR unavailable (non OGL): I'm too lazy to do the math. Also, I've never used them, as I've always thought they were kinda goofy. Off the bat, I'd say they were a solid CR13.

KR 24 seems strong for a mature red. Maybe there is a slightly sketchy zone in the KR ratings (around CR 15-22); this would parallel the rapid escalation in PC effectiveness between levels 15 and 20. Maybe dragons are just enigmatic.

That aside, I think I'd prefer to retain the +2SP/CR progression if possible; I'm not convinced that SLAs are such a big deal - shapechange madness notwithstanding. As you've pointed out, the opportunity cost of being unable to cast spells is massive at these levels.

As a player, I don't know that [polymorph] would necessarily be an attractive option to me in any case, and I'd prefer not to curtail it too strictly. If restrictions now exist on the SLAs of assumed forms in spells from the new subschool (they didn't before), I think that lifting any restriction would be a suitable 'epic benefit' of the seed.

Maybe CR15 base at SP24 (200 min/1200ft), +2SP/CR. As a 20-round, personal, swift-action spell (swift at only +4 for [polymorph]), the caster could assume the form of a single specific creature of up to CR 20, SLAs and all.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I am out of my league with the upper CR monsters; our groups never seemed to get beyond level 10, so if we met something bigger it was as a boss monster. I wish I knew how WotC monsters were playtested, and what their theory is on the relation between CR and EL, and what character levels are likely to be.

You see, the tables in the DMG assumes that there is an exponential progression in monster power; CR +2 means monster that's twice as strong. The tables that Upper_Krust has developed implies a quadratic relationship; that doubling CR will quadruple their power.

This makes a big difference when you are calculating the CR of a monster. If you think something is a very difficult encounter for a 16th level encounter (using up all their resources, potentially resulting in a TPK if the dice are unfavorable), then you'd peg it as a CR 20 in the WotC system. But in the challenge system you'd peg it as a CR 32. Big difference!

And when the party gets to be 20th level; does that mean this challenge is routine, or is it still a CR well above them? If you go by WotC's theory you might design 9th level powerful enough to handle it. Which could be a reason why high level spellcasters are so powerful; it's a ripple effect of people trying to make the official CR/EL system work.

To reduce the role of randomness, playtesting often uses two of a monster against a party two levels above the estimated CR. In WotC terms, a CR of 9 means that two of them are a challenging encounter (25% of resources used) against an 11th level party. But the challenge of an 11th level party is 484, and each monster therefore has a challenge of about 61, and so they are really a CR of about 8. This could explain why monsters sometimes are much weaker than their CR predicts them to be.

Even 1 on 4 challenging encounters are problematic. A party has 4 times as many actions available as a single monster, and would easily overwhelm them. Heck, take 5 identical monsters and have four of them gang up on the remaining one; it shouldn't take 25% of their resources to take him down, but each of the five is clearly of equal power.

So now I'm all confused about what the CR numbers are supposed to mean, and I strongly suspect they were gathered with different assumptions and probably can't be compared. So all I have left is playing with numbers.

I do want to observe that UK has factors for how spellcasting will affect creature's CR;

CR +0.44/level of Integrated Sorcerer or Wizard spells
CR +0.38/level of Integrated Cleric spells (including domain spells)
CR +0.28/level of Integrated Druid spells

E.g. If a 30th level wizard wanted to retain his spellcasting ability when he took the ability of a marut, it should be worth about +13.2 CR.

I'm kinda wondering about what kind of mischief a wizard could accomplish by gaining all the SLAs of a beholder for 600 minutes. 6000 uses of disintegrate - you could carve a mile long 10 X 10 tunnel through solid stone.