Epic Metamagic

[Xaven]

Vecna, do you know where I can find where it says that each metamagic feat only applies to the abse spell, not the metamagically bloated one? A book and page would be most helpful, thanks.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Let's see if I can break this down...

The original post says 40th level. So if we take a non-human wizard, our feats look something like: 7 normal, 4 normal meta/item creation, 7 normal epic, 6 bonus wizard epic

Normal <= 20, Epic > 20

That gives us 13 epic feats to play with.

So first, we need Enhance Spell three times (3, total 3).

Next, Energy Admixture (is this an Epic feat? Looks like it, correct me if I'm wrong, don't have book on me). Now, that's 1 feat, total of 4 Epic feats.

Next, Intensify Spell. 1 feat, for 5 Epic feats total.

Next, Twin is an FR "normal" or non-epic feat. We don't need to count it against Epic feats.

Next, we take Improved Metamagic 3 times. That's three feats, total of 8 Epic feats so far.

To get that 12th level spell slot, add 3 more feats for Improved Spellcasting Capacity (total of 11 feats now)

So given the Epic feats so far, let's look at the spell level of this bad boy.

Fireball is level 3.
+3 for Enhance x3
+1 for Energy Admixture
+4 for Intensify Spell
+1 for Twin Spell

Level 12 spell. Ok, now on to damage.

(Needs clarification: Does Energy Admixture modify the "base" spell like Enhance? I don't think it does, but correct me if I am mistaken)

fireball: 10d6
Enhance x3: 40d6
Admixture: 80d6
Intensify: 480 + 40d6 (Base spell is only 40d6!)
Twin: 480 + 40d6 + 40d6
Total Damage: 480 + 80d6 (avg: 760)

All metamagic feats, except Enhance, as far as I know, only go off of the base spell. Enhance "ups" the base spell, but Intensify, Twin, and I think Admixture still work off the "base" spell (which is 40d6 here).

The only one I'm not clear on is Energy Admixture. Can't recall the text off the top of my head.

Did I make any mistakes here? Where's my summon rules lawyer spell when I need it?

 

[CRGreathouse]

Vecna, do you know where I can find where it says that each metamagic feat only applies to the abse spell, not the metamagically bloated one? A book and page would be most helpful, thanks.

My PH is loaned out at the moment, but I'm 98% sure it's either under Empower Spell or Maximize Spell. The example used is a metamagic'd magic missile.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Vecna, do you know where I can find where it says that each metamagic feat only applies to the abse spell, not the metamagically bloated one? A book and page would be most helpful, thanks.

That's a good point. I didn't see a reference in the PHB that states this explicitly (at least in not a first printing of the PHB). However, if you consult the D&D FAQ, flip to the "Metamagic Feats" section and look at the first question. It talks about Empower applying to the basic spell.

Otherwise, think about it this way. An Empowered Maximized Fireball. Is it 60 + 5d6 or is it 90? Well, it could be either if we did not use the "base spell" principle. It would also make some metamagic feat combinations insanely powerful (Empower a whole bunch, then intensify!).

Hope that helps!

 

[Cloudgatherer]

My PH is loaned out at the moment, but I'm 98% sure it's either under Empower Spell or Maximize Spell. The example used is a metamagic'd magic missile.

Maximize Spell has the example. I knew I read it somewhere.

 

[Saeviomagy]

OTOH, interpreting it that way can lead to some problems. Lets use bulls strength as the base spell. It lasts for (level) hours, and 1d4+1 str.

An extended bulls strength lasts for 2x(level) hours, and gives 1d4+1 strength.

An empowered bulls strength lasts for (level) hours and gives 1d4+1+0.5*(1d4+1) strength.

What does an empowered, extended bulls strength do?
By the "modifications always apply to the base spell" rule, that spell would give:

1d4+1+0.5*(1d4+1) strength for (level) hours

followed by

1d4+1 strength for (level) hours.

If that makes sense to you, then fine, modifications always apply to the base spell.

 

[Vecna]

My calculation is wrong, cause I used empower spell instead of enhance spell, halving the benefits.

My mistake, sorry!

However, from the D&D FAQ (last release 08/13/02, page 18)

Can you add a metamagic feat more than once to any
particular spell? For example, double Maximize Spell, or
double Extend Spell?
You can apply most metamagic feats more than once. Just
stack up the costs, and remember to apply the additional effects
to the basic spell.

So, the spell should be:

120 (base intensified)
30d6 (3 x empower)
10d6 energy admixture

120 + 40d6, average 260 hp

In the case of a fireball, twin spell = enhance spell (10d6 = 10d6).
In the case of a cone of cold, twin spell > enhance spell (15d6 > 10d6).

So, if you follow the rule "apply metamagic to the base spell", enhance spell is quite weak. It's a feat I'd never take.

It's discussed in another thread, but intensify spell isn't the best metamagic feat around too.

An example (fireball + various metamagic + 1 improved metamagic):
10d6 (base)
30d6 (6 empower)
40d6, average 140 hp , spell level IX

compare to
120 (base intensified), spell level IX

You need a lot of improved metamagic to reduce the level modifier of intensify, but with 3 i.m. twin spell add 1 level
10d6
60d6 (6 twin)
70d6, average 245 hp

With 6(!) i.m.
120 (base intensified)
50d6 (5 twin)
120 + 50d6, average 295 hp, spell level IX

3 more i.m to get only 50 hp more!

I hope my calculations are correct this time.

 

[Marshall]

See this thread(very long) :

http://pub58.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm13.showMessage?topicID=2421.topic


The sage gets in at the end, but just long enough to quote "The Rule That Doesn't Exist"

Cloudgatherer : The example under Maximize is there to allow the stacking of Max and Emp. Without it the two feats dont work together. A maximized spell no longer has the 'variable numeric effect' empower needs to function.

Vecna : You still dont have it right.

10d6 Fireball
+30d6 Enhance
+40d6 Energy Admix
= 960 Intensified(if you do it right)
or 40d6+480(if you follow "The Rule That Doesn't Exist")

x2 Twinned(if you do it right)
or +40d6 Twinned(if you follow "The Rule That Doesn't Exist")

For final tallys of 1920(2 Reflex saves against 1st and 2nd Twin)(if you do it right)

or 40d6+480(ref 1/2)+40d6(ref 1/2)(if you follow "The Rule That Doesn't Exist")

AFAICT, the current reading of Enhance is the rule, not the exception. Bolstered by the fact that its not pointed to as an exception and that little point by Saeviomagy and a hundred similar ones in the thread above....

 

[Vecna]

Vecna : You still dont have it right.

Doh!
I'll guess I'll stop calculate damage for various metamagic and I'll just use empower for my spells.

(However, I was considering math mistakes, not wrong rule interpretation)

A proposal for stacking metamagic:
When a metamagic feat affects a spell damage, use the base damage spell for each m.f.
Otherwise let the m.f. stack

Examples:
A twinned empowered fireball creates 2 fireball: 10d6(t) + 15d6(e)
A twinned enlarged fireball creates 2 fireball: 15 radius both
A twinned enlarged empowered fireball creates 2 fireball: 10d6(t) + 15d6(e), 15 radius both.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Originally posted by Marshall Cloudgatherer : The example under Maximize is there to allow the stacking of Max and Emp. Without it the two feats dont work together. A maximized spell no longer has the 'variable numeric effect' empower needs to function.

There are at least a couple things not spelled out explicitly in the rules we end up having to figure out for ourselves. Or we can ask the game designers and see what they think.

For instance, there isn't *specific* text allowing one to stack the same metamagic feat multiple times (empowered empowered fireball, for instance).

It's a fairly common practice for a metamagic feat to only modify the base spell. It just makes sense, is consistent, and eliminates a lot of problems.

If you are contending that this rule is not the case, then all I want for Christmas is Empower Spell.

Empowered Fireball: 10d6 + 5d6
Empowered x2 Fireball: 15d6 + 7d6
Empowered x3 Fireball: 22d6 + 11d6

So the above is why we only base it on the base spell. Enhance is the exception, which is why it says it modifies the "base" spell and why there is the special restriction of only being able to apply it as many times as the feat has been taken.