Epic Rogues

[ruleslawyer]

Getting back on topic , anyone remember the old 2e High Level Campaigns book? I barely remember anything from it since I never really had any 2e characters get that high in level, but I do remember that one of things thieves could get was the ability to travel quickly through areas of darkness and shadow. That ability had neat flavor, and is something along the lines of the type of thing that I would expect an Epic rogue to be able to do. Stuff that crosses the line from an amazing level of skill to a supernatural level of skill, without being something that feels too much like a spell and begins to tread on the toes of the spell casters.

You've checked out the description of the shadowdancer prestige class, right?

IMHO, any non-primary caster in 3e should be picking up a couple levels of other classes. Non-caster classes have the inherent advantage of GAINING additional power by multiclassing rather than losing spellcasting ability. A truly epic rogue may have 21+ levels of rogue, but might also do well to pick up a level or two of shadowdancer, some fighter levels, or maybe even a level or two of sorcerer.

Moreover, the equipment-by-level guidelines assume that a rogue of epic level should have a good selection of magical doodads. A staff of greater dispelling (to negate fortification abilities), an amulet of proof against detection and location, and an item that confers a true seeing or true strike ability are all vital to the operations of an epic rogue.

I do think that rogues should have some enhanced ability to cloak themselves from scrying and detection, though. Maybe a feat that allows the rogue to use his Hide skill in place of the Scry skill when countering scrying attempts?

 

[Gaiden]

In Rokugan's way of the Ninja, they detail a few feats that may be of interest. One is Lightning Stealth (reduces all movement penalties of moving by half and can move at normal rate with no penalty). Vanish is another one that is cool (lets the penalty to hide while in Plain sight by creating a distraction be reduced while at the same time letting you do it as a MEA rather than a standard action as well as letting you do it while moving).

There are a few other abilities that increase the versatility of sneak attack and increase its power.

 

[Nish]

You've checked out the description of the shadowdancer prestige class, right?

Yes, and I adressed that idea in the last paragraph of my post. Like KaeYoss said, prestige classes are (supposed to be) all about focusing the direction of a character. Most of my characters have a very clearly determined focus, and its rare for any one prestige class to match up well with my vision for a character, even if one or two abilities might work really well.

IMHO, any non-primary caster in 3e should be picking up a couple levels of other classes. Non-caster classes have the inherent advantage of GAINING additional power by multiclassing rather than losing spellcasting ability. A truly epic rogue may have 21+ levels of rogue, but might also do well to pick up a level or two of shadowdancer, some fighter levels, or maybe even a level or two of sorcerer.

If you ask me, it depends on the player and the character. Personally I enjoy playing savants, characters that have their schtick and do it better than anybody else. Whereas I have a friend that I game with who's idea of a "rogue" is a halfling brd2/ftr2/rog4/rgr1. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Moreover, the equipment-by-level guidelines assume that a rogue of epic level should have a good selection of magical doodads. A staff of greater dispelling (to negate fortification abilities), an amulet of proof against detection and location, and an item that confers a true seeing or true strike ability are all vital to the operations of an epic rogue.

First of all, a staff is not a very rogue-ish thing to be carrying around, both in terms of style and the practical problems involved in what a rogue does. Second, with a caster level check DC 19, an Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location is ridiculously useless at Epic levels. However, even if I had an Epic rogue with some kind innate ability to resist divination, an item that could cast or conferred Mind Blank would be well worth having. And yes, True Seeing is sweeeeet...

I do think that rogues should have some enhanced ability to cloak themselves from scrying and detection, though. Maybe a feat that allows the rogue to use his Hide skill in place of the Scry skill when countering scrying attempts?

It's good to know I'm not alone. Now somebody just needs to post something in the house rules forum. I'd volunteer, but I generally suck at creating game mechanics.

Oh, and Gaiden, consider Way of the Ninja on my shopping list.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Ah; here's where the yelling starts.

Like KaeYoss said, prestige classes are (supposed to be) all about focusing the direction of a character. Most of my characters have a very clearly determined focus, and its rare for any one prestige class to match up well with my vision for a character, even if one or two abilities might work really well.

AFAICT, you want a character that has supernatural hiding and movement capabilities. That sounds like someone with some shadowdancer levels to me.

I think you're seeing PrCs and classes as a straitjacket rather than a tool for enhancing character flexibility; the 3e design philosophy explicitly endorses the latter view, not the former. A shadowdancer is one who learns to use the shadows for additional concealment and neat movement tricks; any rogue who wants to hide in interesting ways could easily align his "focus" with this PrC. It's quite a far cry from a PrC like Acolyte of the Skin, which really does demand exclusivity of sorts. IOW, feats can't accomplish everything. Want to have some minor one-shot spell powers? Take a level of sorcerer. Want the uncanny ability to sense incoming attacks? Take a few levels of a class that grants uncanny dodge. Feats can't (and shouldn't) do everything.

First of all, a staff is not a very rogue-ish thing to be carrying around, both in terms of style and the practical problems involved in what a rogue does. Second, with a caster level check DC 19, an Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location is ridiculously useless at Epic levels.

X item doesn't need to look like a staff to function as one; it just would have to be a staff (or a vastly more expensive wondrous item) for rules purposes. Make it a climbing rod, scepter, dildo, or whatever. Appearance doesn't matter for purposes of the rules; mechanics do. Second, the ELH gives mechanics for enhancing the DC of a particular item's powers.

Oh, if you're looking for an item that casts mind blank, I believe you'd be happy with the greenstone amulet (a minor artifact detailed in Magic of Faerun).

 

[drnuncheon]

Except that any 'ol spell caster will be able to scry the rogue at any time and know what they're up to.

Do spellcasters in your game scry random rogues "just in case"? (Or conversely, do your rogues set up appointments with their opponents to let them know when they're coming?)

If you don't know about someone or that they're acting against you, you have no reason to scry them.

J

 

[hammymchamham]

what about deep gnomes? they have nondetection and spell resistance...

I'm currently playing a deep gnome, and if he gets to epic levels (he's level 8 now) he will be mighty. yes? I plan to go strait rogue with him. He'll concentrate on feats that improve his survivability and dealing sneak attack damage

edit: fixed level

 

[jontherev]

Actually...

Epic Rogues make out better than their multiclassed cohorts. Why? Because at least they can take advantage of True Strike and do +12d6 damage once per round (you're hasted right?). The fighter/rogue trying this tactic only gets about half of this damage. Or, you can use Seeker arrows, which remove the concealment miss chance. As for Fortification, that's a tough one. All foes will not be immune to sneak attacks unless you have a dastardly DM. Everyone will not have Cloaks of Displacement, Armor of Fort, or the spell Blur cast upon them. If so, cash in on all that expensive treasure and buy yourself a gem of true seeing. Let the fighter deal with those in Armor of Fort. If that pesky enemy wizard has displacement/blur up, then wait for your buddy to cast dispel magic. Basically, as long as your DM doesn't have it "in" for rogues, you should be able to sneak attack almost as often in epic levels imo. At least, I hope so. I'll let you know how my pc fares in about 8 or 9 levels.

 

[Nish]

Ah; here's where the yelling starts.

I have that effect on people.

AFAICT, you want a character that has supernatural hiding and movement capabilities. That sounds like someone with some shadowdancer levels to me.

Sounds like an over-simplification to me. For the character which I'm more or less arguing on behalf of here, there's simply way too much about the Shadow Dancer that doesn't fit the character. In fact the only things I feel would work for the character that she doesn't already get from the Rogue class are Hide in Plain Sight and Darkvision. Why in the Nine Hells should I have to get combat reflexes and buy 5 ranks in perform (something that really doesn't fit the character), to get those couple of abilities, along with a bunch of other stuff I don't want, while at the same time missing out on Rogue stuff that I do want?

I think you're seeing PrCs and classes as a straitjacket rather than a tool for enhancing character flexibility; the 3e design philosophy explicitly endorses the latter view, not the former. A shadowdancer is one who learns to use the shadows for additional concealment and neat movement tricks; any rogue who wants to hide in interesting ways could easily align his "focus" with this PrC.

How about if the PC hates undead? That would require some serious "aligning". Either that, or the DM house ruling the Summon Shadow ability out for you. There are countless ways that any given prestige class (or core class) can simply not fit a character, even if it has some nice abilities.

It's quite a far cry from a PrC like Acolyte of the Skin, which really does demand exclusivity of sorts. IOW, feats can't accomplish everything. Want to have some minor one-shot spell powers? Take a level of sorcerer. Want the uncanny ability to sense incoming attacks? Take a few levels of a class that grants uncanny dodge. Feats can't (and shouldn't) do everything.

Right, but there's alot you can't do with multiclassing either.

X item doesn't need to look like a staff to function as one; it just would have to be a staff (or a vastly more expensive wondrous item) for rules purposes. Make it a climbing rod, scepter, dildo, or whatever. Appearance doesn't matter for purposes of the rules; mechanics do. Second, the ELH gives mechanics for enhancing the DC of a particular item's powers.

I realize that the item creation rules are very flexible, but there's still something un-heroic and anti-climatic about relying too much on magic items. Especially when you're talking about the core function of a character. Besides, you can't always assume that you're going to be able to get every or even any magic items that you specifically want.

Originally posted by drnuncheon

Do spellcasters in your game scry random rogues "just in case"?

No, but the theoretical possibility of being scried by just about any pissant, no matter how skilled one is at hiding, takes a little bit of the excitement out of playing an Epic rogue.

(Or conversely, do your rogues set up appointments with their opponents to let them know when they're coming?)

No, but they are far more skilled than you at being facetious.

If you don't know about someone or that they're acting against you, you have no reason to scry them.

J

Not acquiring a reputation or any living (or undead, or construct...) enemies that know who you are is far easier said than done. Especially when you're running around with a bunch of other screwballs that have no talent for subtlety.

 

[DM_Matt]

Rogues are immensely powerful at Epic levels. Their sneak attack just keeps increasing, and they have access to some great feats.

An epic rogue should always be hasted in combat and have ways of sneak attacking anything that is susceptible.

An epic rogue should thus get his three iterative attacks on his target. An epic rogue should get another attack from Expert Tactician, maybe even another from Imp Trip. An epic rogue should have lingering dmg, so that the sneak dmg repeats the next round.

An epic rogues should also have those insane save feats, the uber epic dodge feat, and possibly, esp. with a couple levels of monk, the anti-ranged feats. Becuase of all this and good skills and dex, he should be mobile and have an excellent AC.

When you talk about straight fighters v straight rogues, the rogues get closer and closer to the fighters in power during epic levels.

Yes, some things are immune to sneaks, but rogues should rip to shreds anything that isn't.

 

[bret]

Rogues are immensely powerful at Epic levels. Their sneak attack just keeps increasing, and they have access to some great feats.

[ snip ]

Yes, some things are immune to sneaks, but rogues should rip to shreds anything that isn't.

Blur, 2nd level Arcane spell. Provides concealment, thus preventing Sneak Attack.

Fortification as an Armor Enchantment prevents criticals and sneak attack damage. For a high level character, it becomes very useful.

There are just too many ways to shut down sneak attack to claim that it is an Uber Ability. If you are dealing with someone of about your own power, they will have plenty of ways to shut it down.