[Epic] Some strange questions

[Creeperman]

I fail to see your point. That passage merely explains how you choose bonus feats. Of course a Ftr2 won't select an epic feat; he doesn't meet the prerequisites. A Wiz20/Ftr1, however, IS an epic character, and can take epic feats, as stated in the passage I quoted earlier.

Methinks the offense is doing just fine, thanks.

 

[green slime]

This whole story has been bandied about before. The conclusion reached then was:

An Epic character of any class, may purchase any of the feats they qualify for. Additionally, the bonus feats granted by taking a level in a non-Epic class (i.e. 1 level of fighter after 20 levels of Wizard), may be used to obtain a feat from that class's Epic Feat list, IF the character otherwise qualifies.

Now this is counter-intiutive, and somewhat controversial; there are those on the board that allow this, and those that don't.

The way I see it, is that such a character is not going to qualify for an awful lot of those feats.

 

[kreynolds]

I fail to see your point.

I think you're twisting the passages out of context, so much so that there really isn't any point in discussing this further, especially if you're going to be rude. Maybe in that, we can agree. <-- this little guy doesn't really help disguise the tone, does it?

 

[CRGreathouse]

This is a major balance issue, and I don't think it should be discussed in terms of reading unclear text as much as game balance.

The major argument for is that not allowing this makes multiclassed characters too weak at epic levels. The major argument against is that classes without bonus feats become much weaker multiclasses that those that do (a Mnk11/Drd10 is out of luck, picking up only nonepic class abilities instead of bonus feats which would, under the poroposed system, be epic).

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I think you're twisting the passages out of context, so much so that there really isn't any point in discussing this further, especially if you're going to be rude. Maybe in that, we can agree. <-- this little guy doesn't really help disguise the tone, does it?

It doesn't seem to me he was being rude at all.

As to the original question - you only begin using the Epic level progression for a character class when the character has 21+ levels in that individual class, not when the character's total class levels exceed 20 (unless, of course, the character is single classed). That is, a 15/4/3 Brb/Ftr/Rgr uses the progression tables, 1-1 and 1-2, on pages 6 and 7 of the ELH, but gains the normal class benefits for whatever class he chooses to progress in - that is, if he goes from 15th to 16th level as a Barbarian, he gains whatever a Barbarian would normally gain at 16th level (Feats, Skill points, any class abilities listed for the class at that level, etc.), other than what is covered by the charts I cited.

When the character exceeds 20th level in one of the individual classes, only then does he use the Epic progression for that class.

The Feats such a character gains, both from his class advancement and from the Epic progression table 1-2, may be used for either Epic or non-Epic Feats that he qualifies for, much as gree slime points out.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

This is a major balance issue, and I don't think it should be discussed in terms of reading unclear text as much as game balance.

The major argument for is that not allowing this makes multiclassed characters too weak at epic levels. The major argument against is that classes without bonus feats become much weaker multiclasses that those that do (a Mnk11/Drd10 is out of luck, picking up only nonepic class abilities instead of bonus feats which would, under the poroposed system, be epic).

I thought about this, but the class abilities a character would pick up often more than make up for the lack of bonus feats. I'm sorry to point out the obvious, but the classes, except in a few cases, don't pick up any more class abilities after 20th level, so the bonus feats make up for that. If a character is still gaining class abilities for taking levels in a class less than 20th level, then I don't think they are less powerful because they don't gain the bonus feats a given class gains after 20th.

EDIT: Hmmm. Looks like I don't really disagree with you, Charles, if I read you right. I'm just trying to make this clear for myself, I guess.

 

[Creeperman]

I think you're twisting the passages out of context, so much so that there really isn't any point in discussing this further, especially if you're going to be rude. Maybe in that, we can agree. <-- this little guy doesn't really help disguise the tone, does it?

Coming from you, that's pretty rich. It wasn't my intent to be rude, but if you are bound and determined to take offense, by all means, go right ahead. I'm twisting nothing, just quoting the section specifically covering epic-level multiclassing.

Now, to reply to others, honestly, I don't see it as major game balance issue. What more damage does that Wiz20/Ftr1 do then the Wiz21? He doesn't qualify for many of the epic fighter feats, such as Epic Weapon Specialization, and probably has no use for it in any case. Probably he'll go after something like Armor Skin to improve his defensive abilities. Meanwhile, that single-classed Wiz21 is building towards (another) Improved Spell Capacity or Improved Metamagic at 23rd level, which is much more deadly (not to mention truly broken, in the latter case) then any two epic fighter feats the other character can get.

As I said earlier, play it whatever way you want. As written, though, epic characters who multiclass into a nonepic class that gains bonus feats are entitled to select from both that class's epic and non-epic lists when selecting those bonus feats.

 

[kreynolds]

Coming from you, that's pretty rich.

I see. So you claim you did not intend to be rude (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you), yet you spit out a rude remark right there. That's rather hypocritical to make such a claim. I have not been rude to you. I have been polite since the onset of this discussion, so why you feel the need to hurl insults around, I have no idea, but I do ask that you stop.

I'm twisting nothing, just quoting the section specifically covering epic-level multiclassing.

I also quoted that very same section, and it contradicts itself. I also quoted the epic fighter section, which specifically states that epic fighters choose their bonus feats from the epic fighter bonus feat list. Now, if you aren't an epic fighter, how can you select your bonus feats from a class that you don't even have yet? From everything I've read, the ELH contradicts itself. If you and I disagree, no big deal, but that's no reason to not hold a civil discussion.

 

[Kraedin]

Just to be clear ... if your character is 21st level or higher through any combination of multiclassing, you can take epic feats. "Whenever an epic character is allowed to pick up a feat as part of character level advancement, he can choose either a nonepic or epic feat..." So, if your either one of your multiclassed character's class charts from the Player's Handbook gives you a bonus feat, as long as your total level is 21 or higher, you can choose an epic feat that you qualify for.

Bruce Cordell, from here.

 

[kreynolds]

Bruce Cordell, from here.

The page your link is pointing to doesn't contain that quote. This one does.

Interesting though.