[Epic] Some strange questions

[Deset Gled]

Why should the first 20 levels of fighter yield anything different depending on if it's your 21-40 levels or 1-20?

I agree with this statement, and it's one of the reasons that I have a few issues with a couple other Epic rules.

What about a 20 Fighter/20 Wizard? Because of the way Epic rules apply saves and attack bonuses, a character could have any of the following, depending on how they took their levels:

+30 Attack Bonus, and good Fort saves (20 levels of fighter, followed by 20 of mage)

+20 Attack Bonus, and good Will saves (20 levles of mage, followed by 20 of fighter)

+25 Attack Bonus, and medium Fort and Will saves (from switching off every other level. On a personal note, this is the one that I think any 20/20 Fighter/Wiz should be)

Basically, it just bothers me that a character with BAB as a fighter will lose some of the effectiveness of it if they multiclass into a class with BAB as a cleric or wizard during their first 20 levels, but face no penalties if they wait until level 21 to do it. Same thing for saves. Are there any rules out there that address this problem?

 

[Pax]

When your total character level exceeds 20, you begin taking epic levels, regardless of levels in individual classes. So instead of gaining the abilities of 15-20th level Barbarian, you go straight to the epic version.

Not true.

There's a reaspn the Epic Barbarian lists it's levels as 12, 22, and so on ... instead of 1, 2, etc. : you have to be a 20th level barbarian, REGARDLESS of total character levels, to take Epic Barbarian (21). Instead, if you add a level of Barbarian, you will be 3 Ranger/4 Fighter/14 Barbarian (that totals 21 levels; Rogue(3)/Fighter(4)/Barbarian(15) is a 22d level character).

The trick is, at character level 21, you can choose Epic Feats any time you get a feat.

For example, a Rogue (5) / Fighter (15), upon advancing one level (adding a Fighter Level), can choose two feats -- one as a 21st level(epic) character, one as a 16th levle fighter. The Feat chosen as a Fighter can also be epic -- as it's being chosen as/after the character becomes an Epic Level character.

For the purpose of "Epic feats or not" ... and ONLY for that purpose ... ECL counts. So a Half-Celestial Paladin (18) -is- an Epic Character, and the feat they gain for their 18th level -can- be Epic ... per ELH.

 

[Pax]

I think it makes perfect sense. Why should the first 20 levels of fighter yield anything different depending on if it's your 21-40 levels or 1-20? If you could get epic feats it would make the Fighter and Wizard classes more powerful since they get bonus feats.

That would work fine, IF you got EVERYthing for those levels -- like BAB, saves, and so on.

You don't.

Therefor, multiclassing as an Epic character is -weaker- than as a nonepic character.

Therein lays the problem, IMO.

IMC, I wil fix it as follows: screw the Epic BAB progression; youonly get that for Epic levels of a given class. For base PHB / PrC class levels, you get the BAB listed for that class.

But Epic / Nonepic is predicated on each class, WRT bonus feats.

Thus, fighter 20/wizard 20 ... it doesn't really matter the order you get your levels, at all.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

IMC, I wil fix it as follows: screw the Epic BAB progression; youonly get that for Epic levels of a given class. For base PHB / PrC class levels, you get the BAB listed for that class.

But then your Fighter 20/Ranger 20 would have a BAB of +40, and your Fighter 40 would only have a BAB of +30.

 

[Creeperman]

This iquestion is specifically asked in Dragon 302. THe answer is bonus feats cannot be epic unless they are bonus feats for having over 20 levels in a single class. So, a 20th level wizard that takes 21st level as Fighter 1 gets 1 bonus feat that has to be from the Fighter list in th e PHB, then his feat from being 21st character level can be epic.

And I will throw in the traditional "Sage + Crack = Ruling." Epic is a type of character, not a class. If you gain feats after level 20, why can they not be Epic feats, provided you meet the prerequisites? No way can you tell me they're unbalanced, the other prereqs take care of that.

Ah, well. I'll just stick with the book as written.

 

[Crothian]

And I will throw in the traditional "Sage + Crack = Ruling." Epic is a type of character, not a class. If you gain feats after level 20, why can they not be Epic feats, provided you meet the prerequisites? No way can you tell me they're unbalanced, the other prereqs take care of that.

You get Epic feats with the feats gained as Character level 21, 24, 27, etc. It's just class abilities don't get bonus epic feats until 21+ class level. It would be like taking a few levels of wizard after 30 levels of fighter and getting 9th level spell access.

 

[Creeperman]

You get Epic feats with the feats gained as Character level 21, 24, 27, etc. It's just class abilities don't get bonus epic feats until 21+ class level. It would be like taking a few levels of wizard after 30 levels of fighter and getting 9th level spell access.

No, it wouldn't. Those nineth-level spells only come after eighth-level spells, which come after seventh-level spells, etc. Much like most of the Epic feats come after getting other Epic feats, which come after getting some normal feats.

Sure, you could load up on Armor Skin, Epic Prowess, or Epic Toughness, for example. And you could be at least respectable, at least as far as melee goes. But if you wanted something like Devastating Critical, you'd need to pick up a bevy of other feats first.

By no means would you be unstoppable, or even at all out of balance with other characters.

 

[Crothian]

By no means would you be unstoppable, or even at all out of balance with other characters.

So, we take two characters that are Rogues 20. One multiclasses into Fighter, the other into Barbarian. So, you think that over the next 20 levels the Barbarian gets all the normal barbarian abilities is perfectly balanced with the fighter getting 11 bonus epic feats?

 

[bret]

You get Epic feats with the feats gained as Character level 21, 24, 27, etc. It's just class abilities don't get bonus epic feats until 21+ class level. It would be like taking a few levels of wizard after 30 levels of fighter and getting 9th level spell access.

Reverse it.

Taking Wizard 20 and then a few levels of fighter, all you really get is the feats.

You will still only get 2 attacks per round, because as a 20th level character that is all you had.

Without the feats, would it be worth taking the levels of fighter? Skill points aren't going to be an issue, the additional hit points aren't going to be that significant, you don't suddenly get a Fort save bonus like you would have by taking the levels before epic levels. You are taking fighter for the feats.

 

[Crothian]

Reverse it.

Taking Wizard 20 and then a few levels of fighter, all you really get is the feats.

You will still only get 2 attacks per round, because as a 20th level character that is all you had.

Without the feats, would it be worth taking the levels of fighter? Skill points aren't going to be an issue, the additional hit points aren't going to be that significant, you don't suddenly get a Fort save bonus like you would have by taking the levels before epic levels. You are taking fighter for the feats.

But, all the fighter ever gets if feats. By allowing the fighter to slect epic feat you are taking it out of balance becasue no other class gets epic abilities before 21st class level.