Epic spell system...how would you fix it?

[specks]

I asked this on the WOTC board but so far no response so I'd like to put the question to everybody here:

I've read complaints that the Epic spell system is either too cheesy or too weak as it's arranged.

In your opinion, what are the biggest problems with it and how should it be fixed.

If you could give examples.

 

[Xorial]

I asked this on the WOTC board but so far no response so I'd like to put the question to everybody here:

I've read complaints that the Epic spell system is either too cheesy or too weak as it's arranged.

In your opinion, what are the biggest problems with it and how should it be fixed.

If you could give examples.

I personally would have preferred guidelines to construct spells that had levels that were beyond 9th level, but were still along the old system. The seeds would be alright as a start, though they would have to be adjusted. They still can offer ideas to go by. Theses spells would then have an approach similiar to non-epic spells.

 

[Greybar]

Disclaimer: I have not used the system in a live game.

From what I've heard in some of the story hours, it looks like many of the linear scales in the epic system need to be geometric instead. Ex: making a spell to buff your Str by +30 is only slightly more difficult than buffing Str +10, rather than multiples more difficult.

The epic seeds also are 3.0 based, so they don't match to 3.5 in some ways (buffs lasting hours instead of minutes, for instance)

The key I've heard is something that can't be simply "fixed": the system is an art more than a science. I doubt that we'll see a system that overcomes this limitation anytime soon.

john

 

[jgsugden]

I'd definitely scrap any set formulas they try to use. High level magic balancing is so difficult that any formulas will be counterproductiove.

I would have kept the the spell-level mechanic intact instead of the odd mechanic they adopted. I can see some role playing benefits fopr a vastly different system (ie; it feels special to do something completely different), but I just can't get behind it as being more efficient.

 

[Roman]

I would prefer that the spell level based system was continued and they merely created 10th level spells (or perhaps even more levels...).

 

[ashockney]

Going up through Epic spellcasting happens one of three ways:

1) Automatic Quickened/Multispell
By around 30th level, you can get 1st - 9th level spells as "automatic quickened" and take 2, 3, or 4 actions a round, through the use of the multispell feat. This is a powerful combination, particularly for clerics.

2) Improved Metamagic/Improved Spellcasting Capacity
By around 30th level, you can reduce "metamagic buffs" by 3 to 4 levels each (to a minimum of one level) and take Improved Spellcasting Capacity a couple of times, which provides you the ability to cast something like a quickened, empowered, maximized, twinned, Horrid Wilting as a 12th level spell. (I'm also fond of enhanced empowered maximized energy drain - no save, no sr.)

3) Epic Spellcasting
You can take feats and use the seeds to create epic spells. The problem with this route is the lack of versatility. You can get EXACTLY what you need, once you know what that is, but it might cost you, and may be too late. Epic Mage Armor is a good one, from what I've seen in play.

I've found the rest of the "seed" system to be rather cumbersome and unwieldly, for as little application as it truly can provide. In the epic campaign I'm running, the epic spellcasting really hasn't come into play. I've seen liberal doses of the other two options, used to great effect.

 

[Kerrick]

First thing I did was bang my head against a wall for a couple days after I read through it.

After I got over my period of temporary insanity, I went back and changed the whole thing to a level-based system. Then I sat down and went through all the seeds (I renamed them elements, since they're building blocks - it sounds more appropriate, ne?), adjusting those that seemed to need adjustment, adding more where some were needed. The major change I did was that I based the elements on the highest-level spell of that type, not the lowest. My rationale for this was that an epic spell should be able to do anything a lower-level spell of that type can do, and more.

Then I added more factors (that list was pathetically small and didn't cover nearly all the things I wanted to do with a spell) and the mitigating factors (to eliminate the "huge XP cost" and "I'll get a million of my apprentices to help me cast this spell!" problems). We had a new ruleset for ritual spells already, which I implemented - this also cuts down on the "I'll get a million of my apprentices to help me cast this spell!" problem.

The rest was merely a matter of creating new spells and using them to test the system, making tweaks and adjustments where necessary. The system is on its 5th ot 6th version now; I've got neaerly 100 spells, and I think it's as close to good as it'll get. I'm trying to get some people to playtest it (make the most outlandish spells they can to see if they can break the system), but so far I've had little interest - I guess people have been so turned off by the epic spell system that they won't even consider an alternative, though some have said they don't see the need for a level-based system. *Shrug* YMMV...

 

[Turanil]

If anyone can become an epic level character, I really don't see the point. Plus, as a DM, I am too lazy to do gaming sessions for a bunch of epic-levels PCs. Thus, in my setting players are not supposed to go beyond 20th level, and I will stop the campaign (due to boredom) well before that anyway. However, there is a couple of archetypal epic level spellcasters in my campaign, two of which are known (the "Master of the Fallen Tower" and a Galadriel-like enchantress). First thing, all of them are extremely old, several millenaries old in fact for the Galadriel-like elf. Personally I can well agree with a 50th level wizard 3000 years old, but not a 50th level PC in his twenties (looks totally ridiculous, despite this is fantasy and game).

That being said, the epic-level system appears to me as totally flawed and inept, plus really too time consuming to deal with, for a "lazy DM". So, I chose (from the SRD, I didn't and don't want to buy Epic Level Handbook) a few epic level spells that did look appropriate and houseruled they were in fact "True Rituals". Exit those ridiculous Spellcraft ranks needs (some spell requires 312 ranks in Spellcraft, for effects that are not that powerful), and exit those ridiculous millions of gold pieces and XP costs. Now, casting the spell is much longer than casting a normal spell, and requires to succeed a Spellcraft check which is reasonable. However, I didn't create special game mechanics, and forget about any playtest, the PCs have yet to encounter these epic-level npcs and have them cast such spells...

 

[drnuncheon]

I'm trying to get some people to playtest it (make the most outlandish spells they can to see if they can break the system), but so far I've had little interest

Send it my way (email should be available through the boards) and I'll see what I can do.

J

 

[specks]

Thanks for the responses so far. Keep em comin!

What I thought about doing was instead of using the Epic Spell System, I would use the Elements of Magic (Revised) when it comes out. From what I read so far (in the free preview) this maybe an excellent alternative but I am curious if it is compatible with epic play.