Epic spell system...how would you fix it?

[Vrecknidj]

I've got neaerly 100 spells, and I think it's as close to good as it'll get. I'm trying to get some people to playtest it (make the most outlandish spells they can to see if they can break the system), but so far I've had little interest - I guess people have been so turned off by the epic spell system that they won't even consider an alternative, though some have said they don't see the need for a level-based system. *Shrug* YMMV...

I'd be happy to look this over. Right now, my players have mostly 13th level characters, but the campaign I've devised is set to take them pretty high. Their main villains are CR 34 and CR 37, and they have lots of allies. So, I'm planning on running epic scenarios sooner or later . . . .

My email is davencarol at voyager.net.

Dave

 

[sparxmith]

I'll take a liberal helping of your house rules please.

Kerrick

I'm creating a module that will take players from 15th through 30th levels. (They even get to fight Szass Tam if they want to.) It will start in about a month, and I'd like to have something more handy than the stupid seed system. If you'll email me with the rules, I'd love to try them out.

Thanx,

Sparxmith

welder12@hotmail.com

 

[LGodamus]

First thing I did was bang my head against a wall for a couple days after I read through it.

After I got over my period of temporary insanity, I went back and changed the whole thing to a level-based system. Then I sat down and went through all the seeds (I renamed them elements, since they're building blocks - it sounds more appropriate, ne?), adjusting those that seemed to need adjustment, adding more where some were needed. The major change I did was that I based the elements on the highest-level spell of that type, not the lowest. My rationale for this was that an epic spell should be able to do anything a lower-level spell of that type can do, and more.

Then I added more factors (that list was pathetically small and didn't cover nearly all the things I wanted to do with a spell) and the mitigating factors (to eliminate the "huge XP cost" and "I'll get a million of my apprentices to help me cast this spell!" problems). We had a new ruleset for ritual spells already, which I implemented - this also cuts down on the "I'll get a million of my apprentices to help me cast this spell!" problem.

The rest was merely a matter of creating new spells and using them to test the system, making tweaks and adjustments where necessary. The system is on its 5th ot 6th version now; I've got neaerly 100 spells, and I think it's as close to good as it'll get. I'm trying to get some people to playtest it (make the most outlandish spells they can to see if they can break the system), but so far I've had little interest - I guess people have been so turned off by the epic spell system that they won't even consider an alternative, though some have said they don't see the need for a level-based system. *Shrug* YMMV...

I will give it a look and a little test if you would like..

 

[Cheiromancer]

Sepulchrave II is playing an epic game right now, and epic spells have been introduced. I think all the system needs is a little tinkering. More seeds (I plan to yoink several of Kerrick's and reverse engineer them) mostly.

Factors for increasing duration and area need to be fixed so that getting really long durations (or affecting really big areas) is not unreasonably expensive.

A fix to the problem of too many secondary casters.

Stuff like that. There are a lot of details, but nothing that can't be worked through.

 

[Kerrick]

Thanks to all who have offered to playtest the system - I didn't expect that kind of response, really.
Nuncheon and LGodamus: I can't e-mail you through the boards. Send me an e-mail to mistmane@yahoo.com, and I'll send you the file.
Vreck and sparx: I've got yours, and I'll send them along when I get the other two e-mails (do it all at once =)). Shouldn't be more than a day or so.

More seeds (I plan to yoink several of Kerrick's and reverse engineer them) mostly.

The simplest way to convert level-based back to epic is to doiuble the numbers. When I started out, I pretty much halved everything, then adjusted it from there as necessary.

 

[ichabod]

The two biggest problems I had with the epic spells were the base cost and the skill points. The DCs are designed based on the level you would be to cast the base spell for the seed. But since it's skill based, there's three extra levels in there for the quadruple skill points at first level. This base you have to add everytime you add a seed. The bigger problem is that it is based on skill points. Not all spellcasters have high ints. Clerics especially have several other ability priorities. You can have a cleric 20 with int 12 and a wizard 20 with int 28, both of whom are awesome spell casters. But when they go epic, the cleric suddenly hits a glass ceiling? It didn't make sense to me.

I reworked the system using caster level instead of spellcraft, which solves the above problems. But I still found the system to be poorly playtested, as the DC for a spell really has little to do with the spell's power. So I just made a feet to access higher level spell slots, and extended the spell lists up to 14th (or 6th and 9th for rangers and bards). You could extend them higher, but I have a limit of 40th level on epic characters.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Thanks to all who have offered to playtest the system - I didn't expect that kind of response, really.

Well, I'm not up to playtesting it (the campaign isn't quite there yet), but I would certainly like to see the system and give it a read, as it sounds like it solves most of the problems I have with "Core Epic".

Edit: Forgot email was shut-off... JDomsalla@swfla.rr.com

 

[WizarDru]

There are lots of problems with the Epic Spellcasting system, many of which I've hit head-on in my game, which has reached 23rd level (a fact you'd already know if you've been reading our story hour).

1). Spell are Too Expensive. Try recreating a fireball, lightning bolt and horrid wilting as cast by a 20th level caster using the Epic Spellcasting system. Prepare to be suprised after you do. Epic level spellcasting costs a huge amount in research (even 20th level characters rarely have 230,000 g.p. just lying around) and experience, let alone the compromises necessary.

2.) Too dull. Most epic level spells don't FEEL Epic, IMHO. A spell that does 20d6 damage? Sure it does it at 2000 feet, but so what? That's worth all that effort? I've got a cheaper solution...an epic archer. Super Mage Armor. Yawn. Peripety. Whooppee. Let me Go? Big deal.

3.)Too much metagame preparation required. To be an epic spellcaster, you need to max out certain skills, and keep them maxed out all the way untli you are an epic caster. Spellcraft suddenly becomes a big deal (where it may have been ignored by that cleric, druid or sorceror) as does Knowledge(X), which may also have been a low priority. Asking a character to wait until 30th level to get a high-enough spellcraft to cast a spell that's not much more powerful than his 9th level spells were at 17th level is not a good design choice.

4.)Too much work. Creating an epic level spell feels like making a Champions character, and I don't mean that as a compliment. It requires number crunching and metagame computations, all to try and manipulate the system to generate a result. It forces the players to min-max to a degree I find silly, reminding me of silly character build choices from GURPS, for example, where anosmia was a popular character quirk.

All in all, I think they tried to be so safe with Epic Spellcasting, that they drained all the flavor and fun out of it. The only player I have who has Epic spellcasting abilities simply took 10th level slots for metamagic purposes.

 

[Trainz]

If you're like me and don't want to spend days trying to "fix" the ELH epic spells system, you create something that's quick and easy:

==================================================

Epic Spellcasting Feat:

Same prereq's as the one from ELH, with different effect: It allows a caster to shape his spells a number of times per day equal to his ranks in the appropriate Knowledge feat divided by 10 (2 times per day for Knowledge Arcana 23). When this feat is taken, one shape is acquired. This feat can be taken multiple times in order to acquire new DIFFERENT shapes.

These shapes can be applied to a metamagicked spell. They do not increase the spell level.

Shapes:

TIME: The duration of the spell is increased by one factor:

1 round ==> 1 minute
1 minute ==> 1 hour
1 hour ==> 1 day
1 round per level ==> 1 minute per level
1 minute per level ==> 1 hour per level
1 hour per level ==> 1 day per level

A spell with a duration shorter than 1 round or longer than 1 hour per level cannot be shaped with TIME.

SPACE: The area of effect is multiplied by 10. A fireball would explode in a 200 ft radius spread.

LIFE: The amount of hit points cured by a spell (cure and heal spells only) is tripled. A mass heal by a 25th level cleric would cure 750 hit points. If this shape is applied to a raise dead or any resurrection spell, up to one creature per 4 divine caster levels can be brought back to life with a single casting of the spell (a 29th level cleric could resurrect 7 creatures).

ARCANE: The spell's saving throw DC is raised by 7, the caster gains a +7 on his roll to bypass spell resistance, and any dispel checks are made with a +7.

ENERGY: If a spell does damage to creatures by rolling some dice and are part of the Invocation/Evocation schools, the targets saving throws are automatically failed, their spell resistance is automatically bypassed, and any energy resistance or immunity they may have is suppressed for the casting of this single spell.

SHARING: A beneficial spell with a target of personal or creature touched may affect you and one willing creature per caster level within line of sight.

SPEED: You may cast another spell this round. It is not "Quickened", which means that sorcerors can apply metamagic feats to it, even if they already did with a previous spell this same round.

ENTHROPY: As you cast the spell, magical energies unleashed by the casting gives you temporary hit points equal to your caster level multiplied by 20. These hit points disappear at a rate of 10 per round, and are diminished by any attacks damaging you.

A spell can be modified by more than one shape, but each shape counts as a use.

========================================

Yoink, modify, ignore, do as you will.

 

[Trainz]

All in all, I think they tried to be so safe with Epic Spellcasting, that they drained all the flavor and fun out of it.

My exact absolute thoughts.

Get out of my brain.