Epic Spells: Caster Level instead of skills?

[Kerrick]

On the other hand, the game mechanics don't work well. In a world with epic rules, you'll either need to rework the gods and perhaps even the base divinity rules so we don't see the oddity of mortal priests casting greater spells than their patron god is capable of...

Or just give the gods epic magic too. Surely if mortals could wield such powerful magics, what would stop the gods from having them too?
I hadn't thought about quest spells. I'll have to go back and look at those. Thanks =).

In-game, one could make the distinction by giving the priests of more scholarly religions domains with domain powers that give free skill points towards certain skills,

Did that Actually, all domains grant one specific feat and a skill bonus relating to the domain.

That costs 3.77 million GP, just to research the spell.

Which, IMO, is utterly ridiculous, but that's neither here nor there.

In addition, it only pushes the problem back farther.... (admittedly going beyond 40th level play is a little dicey). I'd advocate removing the cap on greater dispelling.

Our homebrew seems to be rather unique in that you can still play viable characters to well over 40th level. Granting a +40 to dispel checks would work in most worlds; like you said, not many groups go above 40th level. I'd say let superb be the highest dispel; low-level casters shouldn't have the chance to dispela an extremely-high-level caster's spell.

Again, this is a *rough* idea. Keep that in mind.

Since this is rough, I'll try to be nice. It's got potential, but there are a few things that don't quite work...
The numbers are interesting - did you just pull out arbitrary numbers, or are you basing it off something?
Unlimited (as range) is generally considered to reach anywhere on any plane (see teleport); hence transplanar is superfluous.
I think you would have been better off using the area and target adjustments from the ELH - granting a single bonus to "change target to area" just doesn't quite work, IMO.
How come backlash is 5d6 damage, with a cap twice the caster's level? What sane caster is going to make something that high - it will kill him! Remember, mages and sorceres only get a d4, and there's no save for backlash damage.
I see you included "costly material component." Good man. The ELH rating is -4/10,000 (see mummy dust).

If you're really serious about this (and it appears you are), here's some advice: copy the seeds from the ELH and put in your adjustments in the descriptions first, or at least make the notes - then you can have something to refer to. The changes I made were fairly extensive, so I simply copied them over. I also made them so they could be self-contained 10th-level spells (basically like they were in the ELH).
Oh, and if anyone cares, Krust has a mechanic for converting epic spells to levels: DC - 20, divide by 9, and add 10. It's fairly accurate, and it's helping me to refine my system too.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

For the most part, I tried to keep the changes linear, except for where there were obvious jumps in power. For instance, a spell that can be cast in combat has more value than one that takes 1 minute+ to cast, so there is a gap between combat vs. non-combat casting times.

Transplanar is meant to cross planes... Unlimited reaches anywhere on the same plane the spell is cast, while transplanar crossses planar boundaries (Gate, plane shift, perhaps even scry spells).

As far as targets and areas, I was trying to be more flexible than the ELH. It seems rather odd to elimate all factors based on caster level (range, duration) just because the spell is Epic. Also, the areas in the ELH don't line up with the regular spell areas (same problem for ranges). So, I would like to see a more generic system that closely resembles how the 1-9th level spells work.

I thought I'd overcompensate rather than undercompensate when it came to backlash. I see it used in too many out of combat spells, so I made it costly, very costly. I've also got a lvl 30 sorcerer who can take 60d6 points of damage (average 240), and if I can do that, I know others can.

I agree the next step would be to convert the epic seeds to caster levels. I decided just to do the Energy seed, since that is perhaps my second largest complaint with the system: the damage dealing spells bite. I went with the principle that a caster should be able to do caster level d6 with relative ease using an epic level spell, and even that might be a bit low.

Later!

 

[Hashmalum]

Or just give the gods epic magic too. Surely if mortals could wield such powerful magics, what would stop the gods from having them too?

Well, a lack of willingness by the DM to go back and redo the stats for large sections of Deities and Demigods or Faiths and Pantheons with epic level rules might pose an impediment The other, more serious, problem, is that whatever the god's Spellcraft and Knowledge skill check bonuses--or caster levels if you are using that--a mortal could go higher. This wasn't a serious problem when 9th level was the maximum, as the gods always had the upper hand with salient divine abilities (some of which are substantially stronger than 9th level spells) but with the-sky's-the-limit epic rules you are going to have to (1) cap mortal divine magic advancement somehow (2) continually scale up the deities to match mortal prowess or (3) allow the (IMO) absurdity of a mortal being able to channel more power from a deity than the deity itself has.

 

[Kerrick]

Okay, I actually looked over the rules I had before doing this (it's been sitting idle for awhile while I worked on more important projects), so I can make some more informed replies now.

For instance, a spell that can be cast in combat has more value than one that takes 1 minute+ to cast, so there is a gap between combat vs. non-combat casting times.

I think that's rather subjective - a spell that grants permanent freedom of action on someone is a LOT more valuable than, say, a hellball. You have to look at the overall power and utility of the spell, not just how fast it can be cast and whether it can be cast in combat

It seems rather odd to elimate all factors based on caster level (range, duration) just because the spell is Epic. Also, the areas in the ELH don't line up with the regular spell areas (same problem for ranges).

Actually, the areas DO line up (except for cylinder, which is 30' high instead of 40 for some reason...). I rather agree that eliminating level-based factors is silly, but it's the only way they could get that system to work.

What I did was set the base range/area of effect using the factors, and then increase the range/area by the caster level where applicable. So, for instance, a hellball using these rules would increase in range each level, do more damage/level, etc., though it wouldn't be any bigger than normal unless I included a factor to make it so. (In the case of damage dice, increasing the base damage die increases the level - you can't increase the number of dice, since it increases by level anyway.)

I thought I'd overcompensate rather than undercompensate when it came to backlash. I see it used in too many out of combat spells, so I made it costly, very costly. I've also got a lvl 30 sorcerer who can take 60d6 points of damage (average 240), and if I can do that, I know others can.

I don't see the problem with a simple 1d6/-1 backlash. Yeah, it comes up quite often, but when you're rending the earth (for example), you SHOULD take some serious damage. If you want to make it really hurt, simply rule that it can't be healed by magical means - you have to rest naturally.

I was mistaken earlier, BTW - the max dice is twice the caster level. Still, if your 30th level sorcerer can suck up that much damage (the average is 210, BTW), there's something wrong. You'd have to be rolling at least 7 points per level...

I went with the principle that a caster should be able to do caster level d6 with relative ease using an epic level spell, and even that might be a bit low.

No, that's about average for energy spells - it makes a good base, at any rate. You can then adjust the damage die up or down and adjust the level accordingly.

Well, a lack of willingness by the DM to go back and redo the stats for large sections of Deities and Demigods or Faiths and Pantheons with epic level rules might pose an impediment

Hehehe. Yeah, it could at that. I'm rather interested to see what they do in 3.5, since D&DG and ELH are going to be included in the SRD, which means there will likely be an update of some sort.

The other, more serious, problem, is that whatever the god's Spellcraft and Knowledge skill check bonuses--or caster levels if you are using that--a mortal could go higher.

I don't know, maybe our world is unique in that regard. Many of the gods in Shtar are ascended mortals of great power, though some mortals are indeed more powerful than some gods. The gods, however, have very powerful mortal allies who would not take kindly to some upstart attempting to assassinate their god.

And besides, how many campaign worlds can you name with characters of greater than 60th level? Not many, I'd wager - most groups give up after 30th level or so (look at the Realms - the powerhouses in that world at 30th level or so). If you change epic magic to level-based, increase the spell progression beyond 20th level, and give the gods their proper amount of spells, they will ALWAYS be more powerful than any mortal caster of lesser level, Sure, you'll have the player who outsmarts the god - that's to be expected, after all - but in terms of sheer power, the god will win.

 

[Hashmalum]

I don't know, maybe our world is unique in that regard. Many of the gods in Shtar are ascended mortals of great power, though some mortals are indeed more powerful than some gods. The gods, however, have very powerful mortal allies who would not take kindly to some upstart attempting to assassinate their god.

I'm not certain that you understood the point that I was trying to make. The problem isn't that some mortals can be more powerful than some gods, which seems perfectly reasonable to me; the problem is that a cleric can be more powerful than the god he draws his power from. I just don't see how that can be possible. It's a serious suspension-of-disbelief issue.

And besides, how many campaign worlds can you name with characters of greater than 60th level? Not many, I'd wager - most groups give up after 30th level or so (look at the Realms - the powerhouses in that world at 30th level or so). If you change epic magic to level-based, increase the spell progression beyond 20th level, and give the gods their proper amount of spells, they will ALWAYS be more powerful than any mortal caster of lesser level, Sure, you'll have the player who outsmarts the god - that's to be expected, after all - but in terms of sheer power, the god will win.

The key phrase here is "of lesser level". In order to avoid the problem mentioned above, that requires that the gods put most of their levels into cleric or druid. Most of the gods I've seen don't do that. Many of them, including some of the fairly powerful Faerunian deities such as Mask, Shar, and Talos have no divine spellcasting levels at all. None of the existing gods have more than 20 levels in anything. None of the existing gods even have the Epic Spellcasting feat.

A brief digression and rant follows, for which I beg the indulgence of my audience (all 3 of them, at this point, I am sure): Does the handling of epic spells in the Forgotten Realms make any sense whatsoever to anyone else at all? First of all, magic of greater than 9th level is supposedly no longer possible ever since the fall of Netheril. Not even Elminster, who was one of those present when the mythal (a 10th-level spell effect) of Myth Drannor was created, has the ability to cast epic spells, even as he is presented in the Epic Level Handbook--despite the fact that he is one of the Chosen of the goddess of magic, who can and does make exceptions to the "no 10th level magic" rule for those she favors (one of which was the aforementioned mythal creation). No one in Faerun presented in the ELH has Epic Spellcasting... except for Iyraclea, a disciple of the lesser deity Auril, a goddess so insignificant she doesn't even get a stat write-up in Faiths and Pantheons. What were they thinking?

 

[Kerrick]

the problem is that a cleric can be more powerful than the god he draws his power from. I just don't see how that can be possible. It's a serious suspension-of-disbelief issue.

You're right - I did miss that point. I don't know the exact ruling on that - I'll have to talk to my DM and ask him.

The key phrase here is "of lesser level". In order to avoid the problem mentioned above, that requires that the gods put most of their levels into cleric or druid.

Really, though, I don't see why they have to have more cleric or druids levels than their worshippers - they grant spells from their godly power,

Most of the gods I've seen don't do that. Many of them, including some of the fairly powerful Faerunian deities such as Mask, Shar, and Talos have no divine spellcasting levels at all. None of the existing gods have more than 20 levels in anything. None of the existing gods even have the Epic Spellcasting feat.

Check out the sidebar on page 31 of D&DG - Behind the Curtain: Divine Abilities and Epic Feats. I think the reason they didn't include epic feats and such in D&DG was that the ELH came out two months AFTER D&DG. But, "While none of the deities in this book have class levels higher than 20th, there's no reason they couldn't, if you have access to the rules for advancing them... If your campaign reaches such epic heights, you might want to consider increasing the character levels of the deities to keep them ahead of the characters."

Course, I agree that giving the gods stats at all is a bad idea unless you plan on having the PCs take them on eventually, but granting them a few (dozen) more levels wouldn't be too hard...

Does the handling of epic spells in the Forgotten Realms make any sense whatsoever to anyone else at all? First of all, magic of greater than 9th level is supposedly no longer possible ever since the fall of Netheril. Not even Elminster, who was one of those present when the mythal (a 10th-level spell effect) of Myth Drannor was created, has the ability to cast epic spells, even as he is presented in the Epic Level Handbook--despite the fact that he is one of the Chosen of the goddess of magic, who can and does make exceptions to the "no 10th level magic" rule for those she favors (one of which was the aforementioned mythal creation). No one in Faerun presented in the ELH has Epic Spellcasting... except for Iyraclea, a disciple of the lesser deity Auril, a goddess so insignificant she doesn't even get a stat write-up in Faiths and Pantheons. What were they thinking?

Rofl!! Just another example of Wizards' bad grasp of the rules and apparent laziness. I mean, come on - several of those spellcasters have Epic Spellcasting, so why don't they have the spells? (But wait! Eclavdra can cast crown of vermin with her amulet 1/day!) I guess they figured we can figure out how many and which spells they get for ourselves...

On the FR side, it said in the Mages' Spell Compendium (2E, under the description of mythals) that such magics were later taken away from mortals by the gods. So, I guess if you live in the Realms and you aren't a Chosen of Mystra, you're SOL. I guess we can blame this on the fact that the FRCS came out almost a full year before the ELH, which is why the treatment of epic level abilities was so sketchy. All I can say is, I hope to all the gods they do a better job with the revisions. We don't play in FR, so it doesn't really matter there, but I seriously hope they overhaul the epic magic system.

 

[Hashmalum]

The key phrase here is "of lesser level". In order to avoid the problem mentioned above, that requires that the gods put most of their levels into cleric or druid.

Really, though, I don't see why they have to have more cleric or druids levels than their worshippers - they grant spells from their godly power,

The problem here is that clerics can cast epic spells using power from the god, but the god cannot use his own power to achieve the very same spells (unless he has many levels in cleric himself and takes the epic spellcasting feat). Again, without epic spells, this isn't as much of a problem because gods can cast their domain spells at will (even if not their other cleric spells). But there are no domain spells of epic levels. Of course, if one replaced epic spells with true 10th-level and higher spells, and designated domain spells of those levels, this problem would cease to exist.

This brings me to one of the things I don't like about the current epic spellcasting system: except for a handful of seeds only usable by divine spellcasters, all epic spellcasters have the same abilities. Clerics can cast blaster spells as well as mages, whether they be clerics of the god of love or the god of destruction (domains make no difference to epic spells at all). I'm working up a set of house rules that will modify the Spellcraft DC by the class and domains of the character casting it, but they aren't finished yet. (The rules will also do things like prohibit druids from using the animate dead seed and the like.)

On the FR side, it said in the Mages' Spell Compendium (2E, under the description of mythals) that such magics were later taken away from mortals by the gods. So, I guess if you live in the Realms and you aren't a Chosen of Mystra, you're SOL.

Even if you are a Chosen of Mystra, you're SOL--none of them even as presented in the Epic Level Handbook have Epic Spellcasting either.

I guess we can blame this on the fact that the FRCS came out almost a full year before the ELH, which is why the treatment of epic level abilities was so sketchy. All I can say is, I hope to all the gods they do a better job with the revisions. We don't play in FR, so it doesn't really matter there, but I seriously hope they overhaul the epic magic system.

Alas, you're not in luck. The Elven High Mage, a wielder of epic magic presented in Races of Faerun, is a travesty. Consider this, to start with: except for bonus feats, all of the class features improve your ability to wield epic spells (free spells, lower Spellcraft DCs). But Epic Spellcasting is neither a granted power of the class, nor a requirement to take it! So you could have an Elven High Mage with no high magic and no useful class features. You'd have to be stupid to create such a thing, but it shouldn't even be possible under the rules. Another problem is that all previous material on Elven High Mages seems to have been ignored (from the Arcane Age 2E supplements). Elven High Mages used to be able to draw on the life force of elven ritual participants to achieve greater effects. Well, this is gone, without mention that it ever existed. There were some nifty high magics detailed in 2E--but none of them were converted. Elven High Mages got longer lifespans--but again, Extended Lifespan is neither a class feature nor even a requirement. Elven High Mages in 2E got weavesight--no more. The whole PrC seems to have been slopped together with no skill or effort.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

I typed out a long response a few days ago, but lost it (darn) so it has taken me a bit to get back to this...

Originally posted by Kerrick I think that's rather subjective - a spell that grants permanent freedom of action on someone is a LOT more valuable than, say, a hellball. You have to look at the overall power and utility of the spell, not just how fast it can be cast and whether it can be cast in combat

I agree it varies from spell to spell. The system is set up, in general, with the principle that combat spells are more useful. Why? 3e is combat centric, spells can drastically change the outcome of a combat. The speed with which a spell is cast is only *one* aspect, I haven't done any more of the seeds, in addition duration and range also play a factor.

Originally posted by Kerrick Actually, the areas DO line up (except for cylinder, which is 30' high instead of 40 for some reason...). I rather agree that eliminating level-based factors is silly, but it's the only way they could get that system to work.

The only way? Why can't range or duration be based on caster level? I think it is quite possible, but an easier route was chosen (static areas/durations).

Originally posted by Kerrick What I did was set the base range/area of effect using the factors, and then increase the range/area by the caster level where applicable. So, for instance, a hellball using these rules would increase in range each level, do more damage/level, etc., though it wouldn't be any bigger than normal unless I included a factor to make it so. (In the case of damage dice, increasing the base damage die increases the level - you can't increase the number of dice, since it increases by level anyway.)

I originally thought of doing this too, basing damage off of caster level. However, I was having difficulty with how that would factor into a caster check DC. I might go back and change it, but I'd like to see how this system plays out first.

Originally posted by Kerrick I don't see the problem with a simple 1d6/-1 backlash. Yeah, it comes up quite often, but when you're rending the earth (for example), you SHOULD take some serious damage. If you want to make it really hurt, simply rule that it can't be healed by magical means - you have to rest naturally.

The backlash might be a little much right now (5d6/-1), but that was intentional. Overall, I was dealing with smaller numbers (not the hundreds like the ELH has), so I was reducing the benefits of backlash accordingly. I might drop down to 2d6/-1 or 3d6/-1, but 1d6/-1 is just way too cheap if we are talking about caster level instead of a spellcraft check.

Originally posted by Kerrick I was mistaken earlier, BTW - the max dice is twice the caster level. Still, if your 30th level sorcerer can suck up that much damage (the average is 210, BTW), there's something wrong. You'd have to be rolling at least 7 points per level...

Oops, I was thinking 8*30, which is where I got 240. My sorcerer has a 27 Con (16 + 5 inherent +6 item), which gives a +8 bonus (hence the 240). Manshoon in the back of the ELH has an 18 Con without a con item or +5 inherent book. So it doesn't seem all that unreasonable.

Originally posted by Kerrick No, that's about average for energy spells - it makes a good base, at any rate. You can then adjust the damage die up or down and adjust the level accordingly.

At least it appears we agree an epic spellcaster should be able to easily to 1d6/level for a damage spell (not true with the existing system).

Thanks for taking the time to provide some feedback. I appreciate it!

 

[Kerrick]

The problem here is that clerics can cast epic spells using power from the god, but the god cannot use his own power to achieve the very same spells (unless he has many levels in cleric himself and takes the epic spellcasting feat).

Epic spells, once researched, "become an indelible part of the caster and may be prepared without a spellbook (if a wizard is the caster).... Druids, clerics, and similar spellcasters can likewise prepare epic spells using epic spell slots." What this means, basically, is that a cleric doesn't have to pray to his god to gain epic spells - they're part of him.

This brings me to one of the things I don't like about the current epic spellcasting system: except for a handful of seeds only usable by divine spellcasters, all epic spellcasters have the same abilities. Clerics can cast blaster spells as well as mages, whether they be clerics of the god of love or the god of destruction (domains make no difference to epic spells at all). I'm working up a set of house rules that will modify the Spellcraft DC by the class and domains of the character casting it, but they aren't finished yet. (The rules will also do things like prohibit druids from using the animate dead seed and the like.)

Yeah, I don't really like that system either - it seems like they got lazy, as usual.

Even if you are a Chosen of Mystra, you're SOL--none of them even as presented in the Epic Level Handbook have Epic Spellcasting either.

The Simbul has it, but Elminster (?!) doesn't. Guess that setlles the debate of who would whip who's ass. Storm doesn't, but she's not high enough spellcaster level. That's sad, really - FR, the supposedly "high-magic" campaign world, doesn't seem to allow epic-level magics.

Alas, you're not in luck. The Elven High Mage, a wielder of epic magic presented in Races of Faerun, is a travesty.

I'm not going to quote the whole thing for space reasons; suffice it to say I still laugh when I think about it. Another bang-up job by the boys at WotC.

 

[Hashmalum]

Epic spells, once researched, "become an indelible part of the caster and may be prepared without a spellbook (if a wizard is the caster).... Druids, clerics, and similar spellcasters can likewise prepare epic spells using epic spell slots." What this means, basically, is that a cleric doesn't have to pray to his god to gain epic spells - they're part of him.

I don't think so. For one thing, the epic spellcasting cleric still loses his epic spellcasting ability (along with the rest of his clerical spellcasting ability) if his god becomes angry with him. One of the prereqs for the Epic Spellcasting feat is the "ability to cast 9th level divine spells". A cleric who has been stripped of his clerical spells by his god no longer has the "ability to cast 9th level divine spells". Like any other feat, if you no longer meet the prerequisites you lose the benefit of the feat. I would interpret the paragraph you're quoting here to mean that the caster would retain knowledge of his epic level spells no matter what happens (divine displeasure, energy drain, missing spellbooks, etc.), but not necessarily retain the ability to cast them. For another thing, it would seem rather strange for epic level divine spells to work differently than normal divine spells as far as where their power comes from.

The Simbul has it, but Elminster (?!) doesn't. Guess that setlles the debate of who would whip who's ass.

Doh. Somehow I missed noticing the Simbul's Epic Spellcasting feat when I went through the FR epic NPC section. That still makes little sense, as Elminster has actually participated in an epic magic ritual but the Simbul hasn't. OTOH, the Simbul is a blood relative of Mystra, while Elminster isn't--I guess Mystra's nepotism is more extensive than previously revealed.

Storm doesn't, but she's not high enough spellcaster level.

Alustriel doesn't have Epic Spellcasting either, despite the fact that she's another one of the Seven Sisters and meets the requirements--or would, if they gave her one more rank of Knowledge (arcana).

That's sad, really - FR, the supposedly "high-magic" campaign world, doesn't seem to allow epic-level magics.

But that's the funny thing--there isn't any hard and fast rule anywhere saying "thou shalt not take Epic Spellcasting", and the existence of Elven High Mage and the fact that there's no rationalization given for Iyraclea having it would seem to indicate that any PC could become an epic spellcaster as soon as they reach 21st level, if they so choose. Yet despite the fact that it's so easy (relatively speaking), hardly any of the oh-so-powerful NPCs seem to have done it. Like I said, the handling of epic magic in 3E in the Forgotten Realms just sucks.