Essential Classes: A Thought Experiment

[practicalm]

There really are so many classless systems I don't understand why people try to turn D&D into them.
GURPS, RuneQuest, Traveller, Unknown Armies, Shadowrun, Hero, and so many more.
Or even semi class systems like Rolemaster.

I can't play modern or future games in a class based system it just breaks me.
GURPS is trying to be semi class with Dungeon Fantasy, I don't know how their classes stack up against custom character creation. Probably pretty easy to balance Dungeon Fantasy classes against a full custom character but I don't know enough about Dungeon Fantasy.

Characters of the world throw off your chains of class structure. Tier 4 classes of the world unite.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Perhaps it's a hold over from a previous edition, or maybe just because of Aragorn, but I always associate Ranger with Fighter over Rogue.

That's entirely a fair association. My class list is actually meant as part of a wider re-working of the class mechanics, whereby Fighter types are Strength-based and Rogue-types are Dex-based, so I put Ranger under Rogue for that reason.

 

[BookBarbarian]

That's entirely a fair association. My class list is actually meant as part of a wider re-working of the class mechanics, whereby Fighter types are Strength-based and Rogue-types are Dex-based, so I put Ranger under Rogue for that reason.

Thant's just further trouble since almost all the characters I play have 14+ in Strength and Dex

My Rangers need to be decent with Longbows and Longswords, Sneaking, and Shoving.

It's a hard life in the wilderness.

 

[Staccat0]

I’ve kinda slowly come around to the idea that Rogues actively make the game a little worse so I guess Fighter, Wizard and Cleric are the “essential” 5e classes to me at this point and that’s really only because I think there is something fundamentally interesting to me about Clerics as a world building tool

 

[BookBarbarian]

I’ve kinda slowly come around to the idea that Rogues actively make the game a little worse

Would you mind expounding on that?

 

[Remathilis]

Would you mind expounding on that?

Probably the old canard about how "a skill-based class ruins skill use for everyone else since he has to be good as skills to have a niche that means nobody else can be good at skills."

Its as old as Greyhawk (1975).

Personally, if a core-four class had to go, the Cleric should be the one on the chopping block (LBB be damned). Many fantasy wizards have been able to heal, and a combination of Van Helsing holding Dracula at bay coupled with knights templar and the miracles of the Bible has always seemed very D&D-specific. I have a lot easier time accepting a warrior/adept/expert mix than a warrior/healer/magician one.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Probably the old canard about how "a skill-based class ruins skill use for everyone else since he has to be good as skills to have a niche that means nobody else can be good at skills."

Its as old as Greyhawk (1975).

Personally, if a core-four class had to go, the Cleric should be the one on the chopping block (LBB be damned). Many fantasy wizards have been able to heal, and a combination of Van Helsing holding Dracula at bay coupled with knights templar and the miracles of the Bible has always seemed very D&D-specific. I have a lot easier time accepting a warrior/adept/expert mix than a warrior/healer/magician one.

Yeah I'm on board too. I dig the Combat, Skill, Magic divide of Skyrim or Warrrior, Rogue, Mage of Dragon Age/Fantasy Age.

Still I'm fine with D&D having more classes as long as there is a strong concept and unique mechanics.

 

[Staccat0]

Would you mind expounding on that?

Only a little. I’ve only come around on it recently and I’m not in a good spot to make a full-throated argument.

Basically: There is a contingent of old schoolers who point out that in old school D&D EVERYONE was a thief. Everyone was always sneaking, trying to deal with traps and locks and generally being tricky rogues. Combat was deadly and e counter math didn’t exist so players were really careful about what they were doing.

When they put a name on THIEVES in later editions it became someone’s “job” and set us off on a road that a lot more character expression happens in the math on your character sheet. More hand-wringing about skills, specialities, feats, encounter balance and simulation... vs someone making a character who just does or doesn’t steal things.

I’m not saying it’s the wrong way to play (i’ll happily play a 5e rogue and like them st my table) but if we’re cutting the game down to it’s essential bits I think there is an argument to make in the direction that nothing is actually lost by just having “rogue” be a personality and skillset. Really it just means the Fighter, Cleric and Wizard are out there trying to navigate a dungeon with clever solutions vs rolling skill checks.

edit: I think it makes total sense to cut clerics too, but I do a lot of stuff with religion at my table that I would have a harder time expressing through wizards.

 

[Jester David]

The three “essential” classes were in the 3e Unearthed Arcana: the warrior, the expert, and the spellcaster.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm

There’s no hard difference between the wizard and cleric, just spell flavour and choices. Then you need the fighting class and the skill class.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

A class shoehorns your character into a genre archetype.

My problem with D&D classes is that this isn't always true. Some classes are not archetypes.

For example, Fighter. "One who fights" is not an archetype - its too broad.

The lightly-armoured figure with big weapons and amazing resilience is an archetype. The hooded figure striking with a dagger from the shadows is an archetype.

My issue is that there isn't a 1-1 correspondance. My first example is a D&D Barbarian. My second example is a D&D Rogue, or maybe a Ranger, or perhaps a Monk. It could also be a Fighter.

I'd like to see classes and archetypes separated. Classes should be a matter of mechanics. Instead of Wizard, Sorcerer/Bard and Cleric/Druid, I'd just have Book-Preparation Caster and Known Spells Caster.

Or maybe just Caster?

Then again, I like DAGE/FAGE's use of three classes: fighter (fights using armour and heavy weapons), rogue (fights using agility and light weapons), and wizard.