Essentials' "Give Backs"

[Scribble]

.AND, if as you assert, you'd be done for the day, that is not reflected in the daily power structure, which does not demand rest immediately subsequent. Indeed, you could use your daily power first, and continue adventuring as if nothing happened. You don't even have to burn a second wind.

I think there is something to what he was saying.


For example, when I work out... There are times when I say, do bench presses at my max weight. After that, I'm not out for the day, but I definitely can't lift anything near what I lifted in that set.

This is how I see dailies. Once you do that max exertion thing, you can't do it again, you need to rest, but you can still do other less intense things.

The thing that gets me with Dailies isn't so much that you can only do them once a day- it's that you can only do that "specific" thing once a day. So if you have two daily slots, you can do another thing equally as exerting, but not the same thing you did before...

I think just allowing people to use another daily slot to do the same daily power again would fix this.

The problem is it opens up the game to the players that just like to spam attacks over and over again. If your group doesn't experience this, then no issue... But for those that do, it can get annoying.

 

[Festivus]

The problem is it opens up the game to the players that just like to spam attacks over and over again. If your group doesn't experience this, then no issue... But for those that do, it can get annoying.

Sorry to do this "I think this is what X is thinking" thing, so I apologize in advance.

I could see where the mechanic would be similar to overcharging at wills with power points. So martial classes would have encounter powers that you can spend exertion points on to bring them to a daily power level, but only for as many as you have points for. So no dailies, and at 1st level you can only lift that volkswagon once a day, but at higher levels you could perhaps do it 3 times a day, or lift it once, and carry a piano up the stairs twice. So instead of daily powers, you get another exertion point.

I could see where that makes sense, and I am hoping that is what DannyAlcatraz was saying (let me know if I misinterpreted).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For example, when I work out... There are times when I say, do bench presses at my max weight. After that, I'm not out for the day, but I definitely can't lift anything near what I lifted in that set.

I max pressed 300lbs back when I was a gym rat, but after 10 minutes, I could repeat the feat. And I could do that for a good, long time. Part of that was a regimen of high-weight set reps: I could do multiple set reps at 270lbs (90% max).

IOW, hardly a daily.

Even if we don't take "daily" literally, most of the types of things we're talking about can be done multiple times with training and a short rest

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I kind of wish they had used a mechanic like a Daily costs 1 Healing Surge to use. THAT would make sense for ALL classes and wouldn't offend the sensibilities of the "martial daily haters". Make it physically taxing to use any daily AND you can use it again if you want. As a DM, wearing down the party gets a lot easier if they're spending their healing surges and it makes it into a real decision about if the daily is worth that HS or not.

and

I could see where the mechanic would be similar to overcharging at wills with power points. So martial classes would have encounter powers that you can spend exertion points on to bring them to a daily power level, but only for as many as you have points for. So no dailies, and at 1st level you can only lift that volkswagon once a day, but at higher levels you could perhaps do it 3 times a day, or lift it once, and carry a piano up the stairs twice. So instead of daily powers, you get another exertion point.

...and the mechanic I mentioned earlier, where a successful use of a second encounter power has the options of 1) bigger damage, 2) imposing a condition on the target OR 3) recharging the encounter power that preceded it all make more sense to me than martial daily powers.

I'm sure that with more time we could come up with several more as well.

This is all on the fly brainstorming: some of these might prove too unwieldy, underpowered/overpowered or have other hidden flaws. Thats what playtesting sorts out. However, they all have potential and don't pound a square peg into a round hole.

 

[Scribble]

I max pressed 300lbs back when I was a gym rat, but after 10 minutes, I could repeat the feat. And I could do that for a good, long time. Part of that was a regimen of high-weight set reps: I could do multiple set reps at 270lbs (90% max).

IOW, hardly a daily.

Even if we don't take "daily" literally, most of the types of things we're talking about can be done multiple times with training and a short rest

Sure but then we get into what I was saying about over whether something is realistic or "realistic."

We could go back and forth over and over about anything in game where one party claims something doesn't map to their own world view, and is therefore unrealistic, and we'd never get anywhere.

In the end, as I said though I'm glad they're adding elements to the game that others find accepting to their view.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sure but then we get into what I was saying about over whether something is realistic or "realistic."

We could go back and forth over and over about anything in game where one party claims something doesn't map to their own world view, and is therefore unrealistic, and we'd never get anywhere.

Which is why I said upthread that there really isn't anything I've seen or am likely to see that will justify martial dailies to me...though I should (given my more recent posts) add the phrase "as they are written in the 4Ed PHB." Ways to recharge them (or Encounter powers) with action points or healing surges would fly for me, as could as yet undescribed other variations.

 

[Scribble]

Which is why I said upthread that there really isn't anything I've seen or am likely to see that will justify martial dailies to me...though I should (given my more recent posts) add the phrase "as they are written." Ways to recharge them (or Encounter powers) with action points or healing surges would fly for me.

Yeah- seems it really just comes down to personal preference.

I think Essentials points to one thing... The designers realize the game should hold options for multiple types of player, not just one sort (and that a change in edition doesn't have to be used to add support for a type.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think Essentials points to one thing... The designers realize the game should hold options for multiple types of player, not just one sort (and that a change in edition doesn't have to be used to add support for a type.)

Even though I'm not buying Essentials, I think that this may be one of the strongest things about the new product.

I think there were hints of this in 3.5- just look at the myriad of different mechanics that popped up towards the end of its run in the MoI, ToM and Bo9S classes. The flaw was that there didn't seem to be enough playtesting to deal with balance issues.

Now, I think 4Ed swung the pendulum back too far in the interest of emphasizing balance, but I think that going forward- to 4.5, 5Ed or whatever follows in the game's near future- the designers are going to do a better job of finding the sweet spot of playability between balance and WOOT than ever before.

 

[CovertOps]

and


...and the mechanic I mentioned earlier, where a successful use of a second encounter power has the options of 1) bigger damage, 2) imposing a condition on the target OR 3) recharging the encounter power that preceded it all make more sense to me than martial daily powers.

I'm sure that with more time we could come up with several more as well.

This is all on the fly brainstorming: some of these might prove too unwieldy, underpowered/overpowered or have other hidden flaws. Thats what playtesting sorts out. However, they all have potential and don't pound a square peg into a round hole.

I suppose I should have added that I never "got" Vancian casting. It never made any sense to me as far as "realism" goes.

All heroes have several things in common:

• Training
• Raw talent
• Skill

What exactly makes training or skill in ANY given field different from some other field? If you go to school and exercise your brain you (hopefully) get smarter. If you go to the gym and exercise your muscles you (hopefully) get stronger. In both cases the more you do the easier it gets. I'd like to hear a good argument why training in the Arcane is different from Martial training. In other words....why do daily powers make sense for one and not the other? To me the more troublesome thing is the idea that I know these 2 (3, 4, whatever) really awesome cool maneuvers and I can do each of them exactly once (per day). Each of them takes some form of exertion (be it physical or mental), but I can't do one of them 2 times and the other not at all.

Thankfully this "dis-ease" (two words not one) only appears in players who have played in "Vancian" type systems. Players who have never played in a "Vancian" type system don't have preconceptions and thus it doesn't bother them.

So...anyone care to bring on the "training" isn't "training" position?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For one thing, we have exmples of "one & done" casting of magic spells from Jack Vance...but also other writers as well, like Michael Moorcock, Fritz Lieber and Larry Niven to name a few. They even pop up on occasion in legends & lore. Vance was just the most obvious.

Some, admittedly, would more properly be considered Rituals in 4Ed, but not all of them.

But the common thread linking most of those I've seen is that the magic takes a toll on the caster in some way that prevents multiple castings.

Besides, I'll throw out the usual explanation that gets tossed around for good or for ill in discussions like this; "It's different because it's magic!"