Essential's Heroic Knight -- not so sticky?

[brehobit]

Hi folks,
I finally got Heroes of the Fallen Lands. I really like it (good content, good production values, nice price), but found one thing I think will be problematic.

When a Heroic Knight (HK) wants to prevent his buddy from getting hit, he closes and gets the baddy in his aura. But all the baddy has to do to avoid any negatives is just move away. Shifting or staying where it is are and wacking the buddy are strictly worse options.

• If it stays and attacks, the HK gets a free attack that does at least STR damage and the baddy gets a -2 to attack.
• If it shifts, the HK gets a free attack that does at least STR damage.
• If it moves, the HK gets a free attack.

It seems much easier to get away from a HK than a traditional fighter. Moving away from the fighter gives the fighter an attack bonus and causes the movement to end if the attack hits. Plus the mark stays with the baddy, so the -2 is unavoidable.

So is the HK a lot less sticky than the fighter? It's clear the HK can annoy a larger group on the whole (aura, one attack per turn not round) but the annoyance seems a lot smaller.

Thoughts?

 

[mkill]

The Knight can use a stance that allows him to slow on MBA. So even if the baddie tries to move away, there is a 50%+ chance that he won't get far.

 

[AllisterH]

From my observations of a PHB fighter (S&B) and a Essential Knight...

The PHB fighter is just plain better at controlling the flow of battle around him. He's like quicksand and as a DM, if you're monster need any type of tactical positioning, the PHB fighter has to be eliminated first....Simply put, he's impossible to avoid since you need to actively deal with him.

The Knight is more of an annoyance...it's not to say that the aura doesn't affect more people (it does), but the effect is such that it's more of a hindrance than a "we have to deal with the FIGHTER first" problem.

 

[Saeviomagy]

And all a monster up against a regular fighter has to do is wait until the fighter is distracted and attacks something else, before shifting and then doing whatever it wants because it's no longer marked.

There are upsides and downsides to all the defender marks. The knight might need to employ slightly different tactics to a fighter, but I don't think he's strictly worse.

 

[Styracosaurus]

PHB fighter:
1) Has to attack someone to mark them (unless a power grants marking)

2) Can make one attack/round against marked enemy who shifts or attacks someone else. (this is not an OA)

3) If he makes an OA, then he gains Wis Mod as attack bonus and stops enemy movement on a hit. This has to be an OA, triggered by the same stuff that normally triggers an OA.


Essentials Knight:
1) All adjacent enemies suffer -2 to attack rolls, but are not marked.

2) Can make one attack/turn against adjacent enemies that shift or attacks someone else. This is an OA, so it is one attack per customer rather than one attack per round.

3) The Knight can apply its stance and Encounter power to the MBA generated by his OA.


Comparing the two:

I think that the Knight has an advantage except against enemies that are just trying to run right past him. The Fighter can more easily stop movement on OA, but even then the Knight can select a stance or use Power Strike upgrades to slow/stop enemies.


I think that the Knight is more stickier.

 

[Shin Okada]

IMHO, against 1 opponent, PHB fighter is more sticky.

Even if the opponent survives the melee basic attack granted by a fighter's Combat Challenge, Mark still grants -2 penalty to attacks which does not including the fighter. Also, stopping movement on the successful AO is making a Fighter very sticky.

But the melee basic attack granted by Combat Challenge is a immediate interrupt. So a fighter can do that only once per round.

On the other hand, Knight's aura affects on all the opponents in the aura. And the Knight can make a melee basic attack as an opportunity action. That means, he can often force difficult choice to multiple opponents at a time. Usually two or three at best, though.

Thus, in overall, when fighting against one problematic opponent, PHB fighter is more sticky. But Knight is better at annoying multiple opponents at a time.

Like each defenders are good at another area, PHB Fighter and Knight are good at slightly different area.

Also note that the combination of a PHB Fighter and a Knight works wonderfully. When you have two defenders in a party, you often meet "which defender should mark this one?" problem. But if you have a PHB fighter and a Knight, you don't need to worry about it. Aura is not a mark. And monster is doubly punished if it takes a wrong move.

 

[Scribble]

Also note that the combination of a PHB Fighter and a Knight works wonderfully. When you have two defenders in a party, you often meet "which defender should mark this one?" problem. But if you have a PHB fighter and a Knight, you don't need to worry about it. Aura is not a mark. And monster is doubly punished if it takes a wrong move.

The Knight's aura thing doesn't stack with marks though. It says that if someone is already marked they're not effected by the aura.


Still though, the fighter can mark one enemy, and the knight can just pickup everyone else by default, so it's win win.

 

[Shin Okada]

The Knight's aura thing doesn't stack with marks though. It says that if someone is already marked they're not effected by the aura.

Ah, I overlooked that part. Thanks.

 

[zoroaster100]

In practice, I tried running a Knight and the DM found it very frustrating he could not get any monsters past him. He decided the Essentials Knight was TOO GOOD as a defender and made me rework him as a PHB Fighter.

 

[Vael]

The Knight's main advantage is that all his punishments are simple to understand and use, and he can use his stances and power strikes with them ... which can become truly sticky if the Knight is using a hammer and can immobilize with a power strike.

The main disadvantage of a Knight is the aura doesn't linger. With every other Defender, if the monster does manage to break away from him, the monster at least is still marked. If you can get out of a Knight's Zone of Control, you're in the clear.