Essentials Rogue is up!

[mkill]

I'm sure this is because for Essentials level 10 is max.

Basically, Essentials is for D&D 4e what MERPS was for Rolemaster (minus the licensed setting).

Except that it was announced that Essentials will cover all levels until 30.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

First of all, nothing is known about the E-classes beyond level 10. It's possible that they gain some kind of nova ability after all, maybe daily, maybe tied to action points. Maybe they don't. We'll know when it ships.

As for balance, obviously a class without daily ressources will need to make up for it with better at-will and encounter ressources. You need to make a reasonable assumption on the number of encounters per day (4?) and the length of combats (3-7 rounds?) and aim for total damage numbers in the same ball park. This measure won't match every campaign, but it's impossible to create rules that fit every DM and every story.

It also depends on role: a defender works well with a steady, realiable performance, while controllers do best if they can create a big effect that reshapes the battle. Strikers can swing either way, but the earlier they can take out their first target the faster the PC gain the upper hand.

Actually simply swapping daily powers for encounter powers can make a character STRONGER on the whole. Consider a stereotypical fighter daily 3W half damage on a miss, some minor effect. Consider instead getting 2W and a minor effect EVERY ENCOUNTER instead. At low level your actual total damage output will be greater. It gets less clear-cut with daily powers that have encounter long effects and whatnot, but there are a lot of cases where you drop a daily simply because you need to do some serious harm to something and its effects are mostly wasted, etc. A similar situation where you dropped an encounter power can be better since at least you get it back at the end of the encounter.

So it really isn't clear that anything special needs to be done for the new martial classes to make up for the loss of daily powers. It is going to totally depend on what their encounter capabilities look like. They could be no stronger than those of existing classes on the whole, and yet still provide equal performance to some classes that have daily powers.

 

[Tony Vargas]

As for balance, obviously a class without daily ressources will need to make up for it with better at-will and encounter ressources. You need to make a reasonable assumption on the number of encounters per day (4?) and the length of combats (3-7 rounds?) and aim for total damage numbers in the same ball park. This measure won't match every campaign, but it's impossible to create rules that fit every DM and every story.

In terms of class balance with respect to daily resource management (a narrow criteria, I know, but the one that's relevant), 4e as it stands at this moment /does/ work for every DM and every story. If the DM wants to run single-encounter days, they'll have to be quite tough encounters, and if he wants to run 8-encounter gauntlets they'll have to be individually rather weak, but there's no particular danger of some classes overshadowing others at either extrem.

D&D never delivered that before, and if Essentials really is the wave of the future, it may never do so again.

 

[FireLance]

If the DM wants to run single-encounter days, they'll have to be quite tough encounters, and if he wants to run 8-encounter gauntlets they'll have to be individually rather weak, but there's no particular danger of some classes overshadowing others at either extrem.

D&D never delivered that before, and if Essentials really is the wave of the future, it may never do so again.

Pardon me for nitpicking, but even with Essentials, you will still have characters of all classes with pretty much the same at-will/encounter/daily power structure. So, while certain builds of certain classes might be more or less effective under certain gameplay assumptions, it remains to be seen whether the difference will be significant enough to be noticeable in actual play.

Remember, under 4E, it is not a case of 40 vs. 0 daily powers. It's more a case of 4 vs. 0 daily attack powers, and even then, only if there are paragon paths without daily attack powers (otherwise, it's 4 vs. 1).

I personally think the acid test will be the single large encounter per day scenario, because that is when characters with daily powers will be able to go nova and the difference will be most stark. For extended gauntlet scenarios, the difference in effectiveness should not be greater than the current difference between a character who has used a daily power in an encounter and another who has not. Of course, experiences differ, but at least for me, the difference is usually small enough that I don't notice it.

 

[Storminator]

IMX, the encounter I dominated wasn't the one where I used my dailies, but the one where I got 2 critical hits. The extra 30+ damage on each of those attacks was way better than what my dailies do (tho as a cleric, my dailies' healing powers are very good, tho non-spectacular).

PS

 

[Tony Vargas]

Pardon me for nitpicking, but even with Essentials, you will still have characters of all classes with pretty much the same at-will/encounter/daily power structure. So, while certain builds of certain classes might be more or less effective under certain gameplay assumptions, it remains to be seen whether the difference will be significant enough to be noticeable in actual play.

Sure, if a build with balance issues isn't played (as is likely, if said issues tend towards it being underpowered), the 'problem' will hardly be noticeable. But, it only takes one badly balanced option to spoil the balance of the whole game - that's why 'balance' is such a hard thing to achieve, and only gets harder the longer a game has been out.

Just from what we've seen of the Knight and Thief classes, so far, they're different enough to run into issues - unless some as-yet-undetailed abilities from their level charts turn out to be de-facto dailies.

 

[FireLance]

Sure, if a build with balance issues isn't played (as is likely, if said issues tend towards it being underpowered), the 'problem' will hardly be noticeable. But, it only takes one badly balanced option to spoil the balance of the whole game - that's why 'balance' is such a hard thing to achieve, and only gets harder the longer a game has been out.

Just from what we've seen of the Knight and Thief classes, so far, they're different enough to run into issues - unless some as-yet-undetailed abilities from their level charts turn out to be de-facto dailies.

Well, I remain cautiously optimistic. I know from experience (from my experience, at least ) that power differences are usually only noticeable during actual play if they are fairly large. Characters with small differences in power can often adventure together for the duration of a campaign without anyone noticeably overshadowing any of the others. The fact that a traditional D&D adventuring party is usually composed of characters with different abilities often helps since each character will have a separate niche (or role), and differences in ability due to niche will usually overshadow small differences in raw power.

 

[Garthanos]

Well, I remain cautiously optimistic. I know from experience (from my experience, at least ) that power differences are usually only noticeable during actual play if they are fairly large.

Well that is the point ... a daily is supposed to be a fairly large bump... so that a character gets to shine now if somebody has 4 and you have 1, in that 1 encounter day... without some other climactic bump you are going to be seriously overshadowed or they are poor dailies..... sigh (we are looking at flashbacks mechanically not just flavorwise) but they could use something like uber boosts from action points.

So yeah in spite of my trepidations we might not know enough about the new classes I suppose I will just wait and see.

 

[JohnSnow]

Well that is the point ... a daily is supposed to be a fairly large bump...

Okay, fair enough. A daily is "supposed to be" a fairly large bump...but are they in practice? At low level, all you get from daily powers is about the equivalent of an extra encounter power once a day, plus some minor improvements for the duration of that same encounter.

So how much of a bump does a daily really provide?

 

[Garthanos]

Okay, fair enough. A daily is "supposed to be" a fairly large bump...but are they in practice? At low level, all you get from daily powers is about the equivalent of an extra encounter power once a day, plus some minor improvements for the duration of that same encounter.

So how much of a bump does a daily really provide?

It becomes gradually more significant and at-wills become gradually less significant over the course of levelling.... doesnt it. So at what level are you wanting the wizards to completely outshine the warriors all over again.