Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
I think we have a lot of fun sky is falling threads - some are productive most however are certainly publicity ... I have heard there is no such thing as bad publicity.
Essentials: which new players?
- Thread starter TerraDave
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I think we have a lot of fun sky is falling threads - some are productive most however are certainly publicity ... I have heard there is no such thing as bad publicity.
Girlfriend DM has been asking me what all this fuss about Essentials is, and everytime I try to explain what everyone is talking about and what Essentials actually is, the result is a ping pong effect that creates a discussion that complicates one or the other.
I think it all amounts to this: Everyone is picking nits over the "intended market" and the Essentials mechanics, in an attempt to infer one from the other, when in fact it really shouldn't matter. At all.
To me, Essentials is simply a new set of class structures to play with, and whether that is better for players new to RPGs , players with a passing familiarity with D&D (i.e. CRPG players such as Interplay fans), or old school players who previously stayed away from 4e is completely irrelevant.
It's presumptious to say that certain mechanical styles are better suited to certain people because it oversimplifies each gaming demographic, as if they would all have the same level of rules grokking. I've introduced 4e to a lot of players, and one thing I can tell you is that nobody grasps the rules exactly the same way, even between individuals who fall in the same gamer demographic.
For some, the Vanceian spellcasting of 2e/3e is too complicated. It's a case of strategizing slots, an predict each day. But for some, it's fine because the cooldown of their spells only happens every gameday. They don't have to keep track of anything except, "The party rests," which to them is a more elegant cooldown than every five minutes or per encounter.
For some of them, the simple rules many exceptions structure of 4e is a big old headache as they have to remember that powers and feats are about breaking the normal laws of the ruleset. Which on a certain cognitive level, can feel weird.
I think it all amounts to this: Everyone is picking nits over the "intended market" and the Essentials mechanics, in an attempt to infer one from the other, when in fact it really shouldn't matter. At all.
To me, Essentials is simply a new set of class structures to play with, and whether that is better for players new to RPGs , players with a passing familiarity with D&D (i.e. CRPG players such as Interplay fans), or old school players who previously stayed away from 4e is completely irrelevant.
It's presumptious to say that certain mechanical styles are better suited to certain people because it oversimplifies each gaming demographic, as if they would all have the same level of rules grokking. I've introduced 4e to a lot of players, and one thing I can tell you is that nobody grasps the rules exactly the same way, even between individuals who fall in the same gamer demographic.
For some, the Vanceian spellcasting of 2e/3e is too complicated. It's a case of strategizing slots, an predict each day. But for some, it's fine because the cooldown of their spells only happens every gameday. They don't have to keep track of anything except, "The party rests," which to them is a more elegant cooldown than every five minutes or per encounter.
For some of them, the simple rules many exceptions structure of 4e is a big old headache as they have to remember that powers and feats are about breaking the normal laws of the ruleset. Which on a certain cognitive level, can feel weird.
What I'm trying to say I guess is that the learning psychology of players is so divergent that using new players/old players to distinguish between them is a mistake when trying to figure out "Who is Essentials supposed to be for?"
giant.robot
Adventurer
Bringing the Red Box back and introducing the Essentials line I think WotC is trying to provide the basic D&D experience again. Going from 2E to 3E WotC essentially distilled the AD&D rules and left the simpler D&D rules behind. People who might have appreciated the simpler D&D rules were largely left behind with 3E. This didn't really change when 4E was released, there was no simple option for players whether they were brand new or simply lapsed 2E and 3E players.
Simpler rules don't exist only for brand new players. People are busy and there's lots of forms of entertainment that require a lot less brain power and time than D&D. There's more than a thousand printed pages of rules between the two DMGs and three PHBs in 4E. Obviously they're not all mandatory but that is still a lot for even dedicated players to sort through. Having a fully compatible subset of those rules makes the game much more approachable to a much larger audience.
I'm excited about having a basic D&D game back. With 3E I moved to systems like Microlite20 which keep the D&D flavoring but simplify the rules and gameplay a lot. One thing I like about the 4E rule set is the modularity and flexibility of thesystem. I think this aspect lends itself well to the simplified Essential rules (4E Basic Set if you will). You can use the same rules to make the simplified Knight build as you do some crazy new build out of Martial Power 2. Players who want to move on from the Red Box can stick with the Essentials series or move onto the traditional 4E books and not have to learn a new system, they just have a few more options that use all the mechanics they're familiar with.
Simpler rules don't exist only for brand new players. People are busy and there's lots of forms of entertainment that require a lot less brain power and time than D&D. There's more than a thousand printed pages of rules between the two DMGs and three PHBs in 4E. Obviously they're not all mandatory but that is still a lot for even dedicated players to sort through. Having a fully compatible subset of those rules makes the game much more approachable to a much larger audience.
I'm excited about having a basic D&D game back. With 3E I moved to systems like Microlite20 which keep the D&D flavoring but simplify the rules and gameplay a lot. One thing I like about the 4E rule set is the modularity and flexibility of thesystem. I think this aspect lends itself well to the simplified Essential rules (4E Basic Set if you will). You can use the same rules to make the simplified Knight build as you do some crazy new build out of Martial Power 2. Players who want to move on from the Red Box can stick with the Essentials series or move onto the traditional 4E books and not have to learn a new system, they just have a few more options that use all the mechanics they're familiar with.
As someone who only started playing PnP RPGs three months ago, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. If it weren't for the scads of free time I have right now plus DMs who are willing to hold my hand practically every step of the way, as well as letting me inundate them with questions every game, I wouldn't have bothered sticking it out. Can't say anything for sure until Essentials are actually out, but from the previews and presentation I have a feeling that had I been introduced to DnD via Essentials it would have been a lot less bothersome for my DMs. I'm looking forward to getting it for other friends who have zero gaming experience, as I don't have the teaching skills to walk them through things the way my DMs did for me.
jasonbostwick
Explorer
This is exactly what some of my players have had trouble with - for some people who aren't used to roleplaying games, it conjures up bad memories of playing a board-game with their older cousin who seemingly made up the rules as he went along.
The Rogue and Fighter Essentials builds seem to be a bit less exception-based than their PHB counterparts, which should be encouraging. It can be hard to learn the basic rules to a new game when each player breaks them in a different way.
lutecius
Explorer
this, and I think basic attacks, even with stances, are a lot more intuitive than the
at will/encounter/daily structure.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
The kids these days have been exposed to Anime and MMORPGs or even just VideoGames whose genres are close to D&D. They werent in 1980. Sword bearing martial artists who perform periodic feats of wild and intricate action even ones who dont lapse strongly in to magic tropes.... are a part and parsel to a healthy amount of there fantastical environment.
Thinking "I hit it with a sword" is designed for them???? seems pretty head in the sand.
The LOTR they are used to involves an elf kiting on a borrowed shield into a super charge maneuver onto a battle and a warlord (ranger) flinging a dwarf impossibly far into position against a crew of baddies, and occasionally two arrows launched from a single nock.... not just the plodding counting of heads.
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Yeah, I had this crazy idea once that five schools might be an ideal number:
1) order, healing, and light spells
2) illusion, knowledge, trickery, air, and water spells
3) power, death, and corruption spells
4) chaos, creativity, fury, warfare, lightning and fire spells
5) life and nature spells
I can't think of good names for the schools, but otherwise they seem really intuitive to me. Maybe you could even assign colours to them? Hmm...
Yeah, I had this crazy idea once that five schools might be an ideal number:
1) order, healing, and light spells
2) illusion, knowledge, trickery, air, and water spells
3) power, death, and corruption spells
4) chaos, creativity, fury, warfare, lightning and fire spells
5) life and nature spells
I can't think of good names for the schools, but otherwise they seem really intuitive to me. Maybe you could even assign colours to them? Hmm...
Yeah, yeah! And maybe... maybe... you could give them each a specific LOCATION where you can tap their power to fuel your spells! That's BRILLIANT!!!
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
The point is still valid that plopping 3 large books down in front of a brand new player and expecting them to master the game is a tall order. On top of which they would have to have a pretty significant up front investment in a game they really don't know how to play yet.
Or you can drop a 4e Red Box in front of them for under $20 and they can go through the character generation stuff, the solo adventure, etc and get some idea of how to play, and then get their friends into a game.
Seems pretty much beyond argument that the 4e Red Box is an introductory product for new gamers. Sure, it may also be given some elements of a retro theme that WotC imagines will be popular with older gamers and certainly the product design is retro. I doubt new players will really distinguish much between the mechanics of Essentials classes and those of existing 4e Classic classes to be honest. There may be a bit of a "huh" moment when they first run into a 4e Classic class, but is the difference really actually significant except to rules gurus? I don't think so. Admittedly some things like Warlord are currently missing from Essentials, but frankly I think they only had so much space they could wedge things into. I suspect if the devs could get another 50 pages into the budget for one of those books you'd have seen Warlords.
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