Ethereal Ninja attacking a sleeping PC.

[Shin Okada]

Is the group aware that the ninja can use ghost step to go ethereal? Are the friendly creatures aware of this tactic of the ninja?

The PC party is aware that Ninja can become ethereal and can attack from ethereal plane. But may not aware that she can make CDG from ethereal plane. It is a very rare ability in the entire 3.5e rule set indeed.

Friendly creatures not likely to know this tactic much. While those creatures have been living in that dungeon for a while, when they came to the dungeon, there was no hostile monsters. The BBEG just returned recently and started to re-animate undead creatures. And the BBEG let his followers capture some of those creatures as slaves instead of simply killing them all.

It would seem seem to me that the party should be aware of this possible tactic of the ninja (having encountered him before). However, how experienced with high level characters (and high level ninja) are the players?

Two of the players have been playing DnD for 20+ years and thus at least know much about nasty planar attacks such as scry-teleport. The other one started playing before the release of 3.5e. Those 3 have experience in playing campaign to med-teen and actually committed entering enemies' lair from ethereal plane a few times.

However, IIRC attacking something in material plane while staying in ethereal plane is something new in 3.5e and no core rules make it possible. Ninja's ability seems to be a very rare exception. It is debatable if even Transdimensional Spell feat may allow it, as it's "Benefit" entry does not specify material plane (by the way, this feat does counter "sleeping in extradimensional haven" strategy, right?).

So, while they can react relatively good against invisible foes or scry & teleport tactics (having a never-sleeping warforged with blindsense as one of watches is a good thing indeed), they do not yet have full-counter against such transdimensional attacks. Usually, creatures must first enter the material plane and then attack.

I would suggest having their hosts make some comment about the ninja.

Maybe I should suggest reading Ninja class in complete adventure for knowing what their opponent possibly can.

 

[Runestar]

I would say that CDG still involves rolling technically, just that you are treated as having rolled a natural 20 anyways (in that your roll is automatically replaced with a 20), so no one ever bothers. For instance, you are allowed to go all-out power attack as a prelude to performing a CDG. So it would definitely be treated as an attack for all instances and purposes.

 

[irdeggman]

Ah - so, as it's not a spell, and it's not an attack, a Coup De Grace doesn't break invisibility, then. Interesting.

Technically per the RAW it would appear so.

Now that is not how I would play it, only a strict reading of the RAW.

 

[irdeggman]

I would say that CDG still involves rolling technically, just that you are treated as having rolled a natural 20 anyways (in that your roll is automatically replaced with a 20), so no one ever bothers. For instance, you are allowed to go all-out power attack as a prelude to performing a CDG. So it would definitely be treated as an attack for all instances and purposes.

Well it would technically then be 2 nat 20s in a row since it is an auto-critical and not merely a hit.

Something else to consider is that a helpless character has a Dex equiv of 0 (thus a -5 to AC) and making melee attacks against a helpless character yields a +4 on attack rolls. Very, very large penalties (and a pretty easy hit to make in the first place) {a net of +9 difference in favor of the attacker}.

 

[Nimloth]

The PC party is aware that Ninja can become ethereal and can attack from ethereal plane. But may not aware that she can make CDG from ethereal plane. It is a very rare ability in the entire 3.5e rule set indeed.

Well, in this case, do it. They know what he is capable of and should take precautions. Just be sure to make all appropriate rolls (for the following questions) and write down (for verification/documentation) all timing issues (the ninja is limited in how much Ki he has available).
- How do they know where the party is staying?
- How much time does he use to find the party?
- How many possible rooms does he have to search?
- How much time has passed since their last encounter
(ie: could the ninja be at full Ki)?
- In the parties use of Ethereal travel, did you roll for random E. monsters?
- Did you do the same for the ninja?


Of course, you could just "handwave/rule o" that he runs out of Ki just as he is raising his weapon to strike. That would be very dramatic and allow the person on guard duty at least a chance to stop it. Or, since there should be no mystery of who/how they did this, run it as a cut scene and make appropriate random rolls in front of the players:

"So the BBEG has sent Bob the vampire ninja to kill you. He (rolls) heads out during PC x's guard shift. Knowing approximatly where you are staying, he goes ethereal and moves into room 1. (roll) He checks the left door 1st, and finding that you aren't in room 2, moves right toward room 3. So that is x rounds of his power used. Etc...." This will let the players know you aren't just out to kill their characters, but that it is completely within the scope of the villains power and personality to do this.

 

[Jack Simth]

Technically per the RAW it would appear so.

Now that is not how I would play it, only a strict reading of the RAW.

...which is fundamentally my point with that comment. A Coup de Grace is "not an attack" for purposes of invisibility in EXACTLY the same way a Coup de Grace is "not an attack" for purposes of Ghost Strike - a fairly absurd, if technically literally correct - interpretation of the rules as they're written; a flaw in the printed ruleset.

 

[akbearfoot]

I think as a DM I would rule0 a tactic like this out....If the NPCs use it on the PCs then nothing stops the dead PC from bringing in a ninjaX of his own and using the tactic against the BBEGs over and over again. Wizard scries the bad guy over and over to find out when he sleeps...


The text for ethereal says creatures appear gray indistinct and ghostly...To me that is enough to say they effectively have concealment, for the purposes of a CDG only....If you attack them normally you can get a lucky critical naturally, but their bodies are shimmery and you cant see details so if you want to CDG them it will take you TWO consecutive full round actions.

That makes it impossible for ninjas to CDG from ethereal, but still keep all the normal useage of their ghost strike ability.

And once the vampire escapes in gaseous form, the PCs will know they can follow him and bypass the magically warded doors that way.

*Edit*
The Ethereal jaunt spell says ethereal creatures move at half speed and can only see/hear 60ft. Might make it take a lot longer to explore a 200ft area. How many rounds can he remain ethereal? I dont know the ninja class though, if they get monk-like movement then its not gonna matter.

 

[Shin Okada]

I think as a DM I would rule0 a tactic like this out....If the NPCs use it on the PCs then nothing stops the dead PC from bringing in a ninjaX of his own and using the tactic against the BBEGs over and over again. Wizard scries the bad guy over and over to find out when he sleeps...

As already mentioned, scry-teleport and ethereal assault and such are common tactics for decades. And as a result, most higher-level villains are sleeping in area protected by Forbiddance or other anti-dimensional-travel warding, have strong counter-measures against scrying, or in non-material plane (thus, no etherealness). And also, they often don't sleep at all (undead and such). Actually, this ninja tactics cannot be used against BBEGs of the last 3 module of 3.0e adventure path (Heart of Nightfang Spire, Lord of the Iron Fortress, & Bastion of Broken Souls.

Basically, DnD rule sets favor assaulter and yet favor BBEGs who are hiding in their home ground.

The text for ethereal says creatures appear gray indistinct and ghostly...To me that is enough to say they effectively have concealment, for the purposes of a CDG only....If you attack them normally you can get a lucky critical naturally, but their bodies are shimmery and you cant see details so if you want to CDG them it will take you TWO consecutive full round actions.


That makes it impossible for ninjas to CDG from ethereal, but still keep all the normal useage of their ghost strike ability.

The problem is, if we say so, Ninjas cannot use it's Sudden Strike either. It makes this ability quite useless not just for CDG but for usual combats.

And once the vampire escapes in gaseous form, the PCs will know they can follow him and bypass the magically warded doors that way.

Actually, they can. If they all become gaseous form, they can enter the central area. It is the matter of if they dare to do or not. That is somewhat risky. If something inside is too strong or if dice rolls in combat don't favor them, they must use Gaseous Form again to escape from there, unless they have opened the sealed door in the right way. It is their choice. And the author of the mod is mentioning about that method.

 

[akbearfoot]

As it was pointed out, its extremely uncommon for there to be things that can attack from the ethereal plane...you cant use spells while ethereal or attack in any way that I know of, except for this ninja ability apparently. There may be some monsters but I dont know them off the top of my head.


You originally wanted to know what the rules were. The rules argument about CDG not technically being an attack seems fairly sound to me, albeit pretty rediculous. But it sounds like the correct RAW interpretation to me. However if I were DMing I would not use that rule, for balance reasons, so that puts us in houserules territory. At that point my houserule would seem to open up another strange loophole that lets 1 class and 1 class alone autokill any creature of any level that has to sleep and isn't guarded by extremely expensive high level spells. So again in the interest of balance I make another houserule that requires 2 consecutive full round actions to CDG someone...that rule is already in the book, I am just expanding the definition to include people you can only see Ethereally....because they are gray and indistinct and ghostly which means u cant see them very well.


I havent heard of many dragons with lairs protected by forbiddance...Even dragon saves arent high enough to survive ethereal ninja CDGs.

 

[Shin Okada]

It seems that if this is doable by RAW or not depends on the definition of "attack" and whether if CDG is an attack or not.

The word "attack" is used in various way in the 3.5e system.

1. Glossary definition: Any number of numerous actions intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent. The outcome of an attack is determined by an attack roll.
2. Attack Action (a specific standard action which enables an attacker to make an attack).
3. "Attack" for the purpose of ending Invisibility spell and such.

As Ghost Strike does not say otherwise, "attack" should be 1 in this case.

And it is clear that CDG is not 2. Because it is a full-round action. And it seems clear that CDG is 3. Because CDG directly harms the opponent. So this time, we should determine if CDG is 1 or not, IMHO.

It uses either melee weapon or crossbow. It says "you automatically hit and score a critical hit". And the rule does not clearly state that CDG is an attack.

The argument for CDG not being an attack is that it automatically hits and thus there is no attack roll involved.

But PHB glossary also defines as follows,

Hit: Make a successful attack roll.

So, "automatically hit" = "automatically make a successful attack roll", isn't it?

I havent heard of many dragons with lairs protected by forbiddance...Even dragon saves arent high enough to survive ethereal ninja CDGs.

It often happens that villains in published modules are not prepared for various spells and special abilities added in supplements. For example, many villains in published modules are not prepared well against orb spells, which cause damages without allowing saving throw or SR. And some published modules can be ruined by Scry Location spell introduced in Complete Scoundrel. IMHO DMs should give villains appropriate countermeasures when a play group starts to use additional supplements. Say, making Greater Alarm spell popular amongst dragons. And fortunately, Blue and Red dragons can cast cleric spells, too. So they can cast forbiddance.

In the same manner, I should warn my players that they must prepare for such new power I guess. But how to do that is a problem. I am wondering if I should just point out that "Ninja can do CDG from ethereal plane." or do it more subtly.