D&D 5E Ethics of Killing Vat Spawn?

[Charlaquin]

The context is yes. You can't really redeem them without the use of powerful magic. There was only one redeemed giak in universe which required the use of wish in D&D terms.

One of the most powerful Sorcerer's on the planet essentially reprogrammed a Giak.

If you infiltrated the spawning vats and stole a spawn it would still likely turn out as any other member of it's kind.

As far as I can tell you need powerful magic to essentially break the link with the god of darkness and create a soul for said spawn.

The Darklords themselves (essentially archfiend's on the prime) don't realize that they themselves are essentially meat puppets as well and they're the leaders of the "culture".

What constitutes redemption depends on the ethical framework being used. I’m not familiar with giaks or the setting they’re from, but my answer to your question of if vat-born creatures are an acceptable substitute for orcs and the like as fodder for PCs to kill freely is, “it depends on if they have agency.”

 

[Charlaquin]

Interestingly, we usually allow more leeway on killing in self-defence because it's difficult to measure the appropriate amount of force to remove the threat without being lethal. This isn't the case in the D&D world, where you can't kill people by RAW without wanting it. Any damage from a melee attack can be declared as "non lethal", so one really bears the responsability for the kill.

True, though that’s only if the hit that takes the target to 0 HP is from a melee weapon attack - if it’s a ranged attack or spell, you don’t have that option.

I also personally rule that if you aren’t trying to kill your target, they fall unconscious and start making death saves. If you want to make sure they survive, you have to try to stabilize them before they get 3 failures (Readying to cast Spare the Dying when a low-HP creature falls unconscious is a pretty common tactic my players use). But of course, that’s only relevant to my own table.

 

[Zardnaar]

What constitutes redemption depends on the ethical framework being used. I’m not familiar with giaks or the setting they’re from, but my answer to your question of if vat-born creatures are an acceptable substitute for orcs and the like as fodder for PCs to kill freely is, “it depends on if they have agency.”

I provided links to what Giaks are.

In universe they've been vat spawned for a couple of thousand years and infused with dark magic.

In the fiction only one Giak was free willed. He found the other Giaks fundamentally stupid as he was a lot smarter as well.

In the 3E d20 rpg they were listed as usually evil implying they might have some free will.

Any aberrant Giak though would end up as food. Theoretically you would have to infliltrate a spawn area and steal one and raise it elsewhere to even try and redeem one.

In the fiction it wouldn't work in game rules maybe idk.

 

[dragoner]

With sufficiently advanced technology, we might create an artificial womb at some point and I doubt anyone would consider granting less rights to the children born this way.

We are indeed in the "Babies in bags" territory right now, some medical authorities say within a hundred years, it will be the standard birth method.

As for the OP's Giaks, there is not a huge ethical dilemma, as long as they are not represented as a derogatory stereotype of some ethnicity.

 

[Charlaquin]

I provided links to what Giaks are.

In universe they've been vat spawned for a couple of thousand years and infused with dark magic.

In the fiction only one Giak was free willed. He found the other Giaks fundamentally stupid as he was a lot smarter as well.

So they do have agency, or at least the potential for it. In which case my answer would be no, they’re not acceptable fodder to be freely killed. There would still be contexts in which killing them is acceptable, and given that they are apparently controlled by this dark magical force, would probably be pretty common.

 

[Zardnaar]

So they do have agency, or at least the potential for it. In which case my answer would be no, they’re not acceptable fodder to be freely killed. There would still be contexts in which killing them is acceptable, and given that they are apparently controlled by this dark magical force, would probably be pretty common.

Dark magic is used to create them and they've been selectively "bred" to enhance aggression and all the usual evil traits.

Non evil Giaks exist but they're a different species and not vat born.

They've been genetically engineered as well.

Fluff no they can't be redeemed in one RPG maybe possible but very highly unlikely. No one would bother trying as odds are really against it.

The one "redeemed" Giak was still happyto kill other Giaks he just liked the protagonist better and was smart enough to realize humans didn't like him eating other humans.

I'm not sure he would count as good or neutral aligned but was self aware and smart enough to know different creatures had different ethics.

 

[Charlaquin]

Dark magic is used to create them and they've been selectively "bred" to enhance aggression and all the usual evil traits.

Non evil Giaks exist but they're a different species and not vat born.

They've been genetically engineered as well.

Fluff no they can't be redeemed in one RPG maybe possible but very highly unlikely. No one would bother trying as odds are really against it.

The one "redeemed" Giak was still happyto kill other Giaks he just liked the protagonist better and was smart enough to realize humans didn't like him eating other humans.

I'm not sure he would count as good or neutral aligned but was self aware and smart enough to know different creatures had different ethics.

Ok. I don’t know why you asked if you were already set on a particular answer.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ok. I don’t know why you asked if you were already set on a particular answer.

Just pointing out that where they came from in the source material they don't.

Haven't made my mind up on where I'm going in game on a few things. Might just dump the spawn idea to focus on mutated non sentient things like death claws or worm masses that are psionic.

I might be trying to cram in to many things eg pre collapse magitech clone vats, post collapse magitech water purifiers.

I'm not planning any redemption storylines more eat or get eaten.

 

[Steampunkette]

I am not sure your analogy is correct with regard to the lack of free will and Giaks. You're basically describing a creature having free will and being labelled as different despite no other difference in behaviour from a real person. Let's say your zombie is like a human in everyway but, being possessed by the will of the Evil God of Youth, enters a frenzy and MUST kill anyone above 60 years old he sees. There is no way to prevent him entering that state, and he'll explain, outside of these rages, that it is perfectly normal to kill people elderlies because they are abominations. At this point, he has already dismembered three people in the street, but he's otherwise a very fine fellow when conversing with up-to-59 years old. What would you do with that zombie, knowing that there is no way to rehabilitate him ever to be able for him to live within a human town? Outside of making him in charge of balancing the funding of the pension system, of course.

[Example from Magnamund "always evil" denizens of Helgedad: if you unsheathe the Sommerswerd within the confine of the city, all its inhabitants -- otherwise sentient -- will converge toward you lemming-like to kill you even if it means dying en masse. Your quest, and your life, ends here.]

Though there is a case to be made following your line of thought, I've also find that it's not really conclusive to a hobby where most of the time, killing people is the general (even memetic) behaviour of adventurers, since it would result in even, say, killing devils and demons not being justified.

Okay... so first things first? The Philosophical Zombie is a thought experiment that has been around way longer than I have. Changing it to be "And he's a murderer" pretty much negates the intent by adding a whole other layer of Self-Defense/Defense of Others to it. So it no longer works... But.

So you've got that person who kills everyone over 60 he sees.

Is it moral to kill him when he has done nothing, yet? Is it moral to kill him because he poses a -potential- danger? Is it inherently "More" moral to just keep him away from 60 year olds for the duration of his life?

And then there's the other aspect of evil as a D&D Alignment:
Evil doesn't mean stupid. Evil doesn't mean mindlessly foolishly violent.

An evil person may never commit a crime or evil transgression, but still be a hateful cuss who is, at his core, evil. Is it moral to kill this person? If he had the -option- to kill you or maim you without repercussion he would. He'd do terrible things if he knew he could get away with it. But he's a coward and in a position where he can't.

Which also leads into another philosophical question: Can something which has no ability to make moral choices -be- evil? A rabbit will eat her ENTIRE LITTER if she's stressed out. Infanticide across the entire family. Is the rabbit evil for doing something we'd all consider an evil action? Generally we recognize that rabbits aren't evil, they're just "unaligned". Wouldn't it be the same for a creature that -cannot choose- to be good?

Annnnd... again. Ham Sandwich. Even if "It's just a game!" or "It's not real!" it still reinforces the idea that people CAN be evil as a 'race' or group, independent of their actual actions, justifying even the slaughter of babies 'cause eventually they'll also be evil.

 

[Charlaquin]

Just pointing out that where they came from in the source material they don't.

Haven't made my mind up on where I'm going in game on a few things. Might just dump the spawn idea to focus on mutated non sentient things like death claws or worm masses that are psionic.

I might be trying to cram in to many things eg pre collapse magitech clone vats, post collapse magitech water purifiers.

I'm not planning any redemption storylines more eat or get eaten.

Well, you have my answer. Do with it as you will.