Ethnic groups

Re: Re

Celtavian said:

I in fact have an English friend, though he says he is mixed Irish/Welsh/English, who is 240lbs at 5'5" and deadlifts in excess of 500 lbs, bench presses over 400 lbs, and squats over 700 lbs. He is not a professional power lifter nor does he use any steroids. He is all natural and was born and raised in England.

Physical differences between humans just aren't significant enough to warrant a bonus or penalty to stats.

To know that your friend can press / lift whatever must mean that he weight lifts at least as a hobby or to keep fit. I'm talking about the natural makeup of a race/person. A pumped up person from any race can lift a lot. But I think you'll find that weightlifting wasn't big in the middle ages.... and exercise as a whole!

Obviously dex wouldn't be affected by what race you are.
 

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Golandrinel said:
Americans and Germans, for instance & in my experience, tend to be bigger than the British. So why could you not give them a higher strength, on average?

An article, Were They Shorter Back Then? points up that for modern white American vs. British, the difference is only about 1 1/4 inches. I doubt that's enough to make a difference in Strength scores. Half-orcs are stronger, but they're also generally broader, with more muscle mass it appears. Plus, you're factoring in an alien species, so who knows how that would affect things.

Intelligence as we generally think of it is more of a cultural thing than a physical one; Intelligence in D&D I think is more a measure of potentials than not (ie, more physical). Half-Orcs, again, are the only PC race where Int is mentioned, and they get a -2. They are less intelligent on average; they don't learn as well, some concepts might even be forever beyond them. Individual half-orcs can, with luck and hard study, overcome this (place some points into Int as they gain levels).

As an aside, they could always go and buy a Headband of Intellect or something like that. Can you imagine what that muct be like? Shell out some gold to a wizard and all if a sudden, you understand more.

Culturally, there could be situations where Intelligence could come into play. A culture that emphasized the values of study and literacy to the point where, for instance, each child was literate and had a basic grounding in general education could be considered to be 'more intelligent' than a culture that, for whatever reason, de-emphasized such activities or actively pursecuted them.

I'd think that such extremes would be both rare and not likely to last very long; they would last as long as the factors that contribute to the general abberation lasted. The 'intelligent' culture would probably actually be a subculture, a subset of the general people: again, this would be handled by the appropriate regional feat.

The people of Candia are situated on a rich trade route, and their main port city has grown rich and powerful. So rich, in fact, that there has emerged an entire class of people that have more idle time than others. They have the luxery to study and pursue the arts: as a result, a university has grown up in the port city. Many people above the level of shopkeeper there have a firm grounding in the arts and sciences, and all of them can read. More importantly, they are taught how to learn. People from this port city might have a +1 int as their regional feat OR they could just have certain Knowledge skills always be considered Class skills for them.

Meanwhile the other Candians, the 90% or so that do NOT live in the port city, are of average intelligence.

Decades later, tastes change and no-one wants the spices from the south anymore. The trade route tries up and the easy money flowing into Candia's port city stops. The rich can no longer afford to patronize the arts. The teachers and artists at the University have to get real jobs or move elsewhere; the university closes and children stop getting tutored in the classics. A couple generations later, that subculture has disappeared and so does the regional feat.

Dusk and FR, I've seen, also handles this. Certain cities within nations have situations existing in them that differ from the nation as a whole, so they get different regional feats.

Years after that, a religious scism occurs and the Church of Tarn comes to power in Candia. Tarnism states that all learning that does not come from the Book of Tarn is evil. All the books in the country are put to the torch and the remaining philosophers have their tongues cut out. I don't think this would produce the opposite effect, though; the Tarnians are not stupid, just ignorant. They don't have access to books, but if one was to leave the country and be exposed to them...

A half-orc, on the other hand, is born with a handicap. He is significantly less bright than the humans around him and will always be so, to some degree. Trying to RP that is difficult, though. If I put a 14 into Int, my Half-Orc still has a 12. Not too bad at all. He's certainly not stupid, but not as good as he could have been. On the average roll of 10, though, the half-orc will have an 8. That's a pretty significant drop off, especially since I do see it as an measure of IQ as well.
 

I agree that physical differences shouldn't be reflected in stat bonuses or penalties. One way to reflect physical differences is with regional feats, however. Instead of giving an Intelligence bonus, offer an Education feat that gives more skill points. Instead of giving a Con bonus, offer the Endurance feat.

Other possibilities:

DR 1 vs. cold damage for being raised in an extremely wintery climate, DR 1 vs. heat/fire for being raised in the desert.

Weapon familiarities for exotic weapons (if many people from your race are skilled with a heavy two handed weapon, it gives the impression of great strength without a bonus per se)

Weapon bonuses, such as the +1 bonus that halflings get to throw weapons. (can substitute for a full Dex bonus).

Importantly, I think that "racial" bonuses for human races should be given based on where the character is born and raised, _not_ upon the color of their skin or their ancestry. Many people feel most comfortable playing characters that look like them, and they should not be limited to only playing certain types of characters, simply because they want Asian features or dark skin.

Balsamic Dragon
 

WayneLigon said:

An article, Were They Shorter Back Then? points up that for modern white American vs. British, the difference is only about 1 1/4 inches. I doubt that's enough to make a difference in Strength scores. Half-orcs are stronger, but they're also generally broader, with more muscle mass it appears. Plus, you're factoring in an alien species, so who knows how that would affect things.

On the other hand, if historical accounts are to be believed, the difference in height, stature and strength between, for example, Roman troops and the various "barbarians" (Celts in particular) was very significant...
 

And what about extremes like pygmies? They are not just one offs but the norm for their race. Whilst I expect they can be very constitutional and strong due to the conditions they live, I doubt they will have the physical capabilities of larger races.
 

The problem with assigning stat bonuses or penalties to human groups is that rather than defining the trend of the group so much, they define the potential (at least in the beginning) for a new character.

I believe that if you wish to define the trend among the group, it should simply state something like "The people of Kasteban tend to follow more intellectual pursuits rather than physical development, using magic or cooperation for labor whenever possible." And when a character is made, he or she can either decide to go with the trend or go against the grain and build a Kastebani bruiser, which may well be the first step in an interesting backstory.
 

KitanaVorr said:
So giving someone racial stereotypes are wrong. I'm not talking about the economic stereotypes etc...I'm talking about the stereotypes based on things like "Are you red, yellow, white or black?" kind of things.

You know the stuff that begins with:

All asian people are....
All white people are...
All latino people are....
All etc....are....

That's the stuff that should never be given ability points to. In game or out of game, its basically racist material.
Ok, I have to bite... why is it wrong to recognize the differences in human beings?

Part of why we have been so successful as a species is because of our extremely adaptive nature. We live in practically every climate, high or low, in every sort of terrain and condition that is, through ingenuity and invention, habitable by human beings.

People with dark skin have dark skin due to having greater amounts of melanin, the dark pigment in skin which protects against UV damage, and is a direct result of having adapted to a predominantly outdoor lifestyle in the sun.

White people have adapted too, because of their environment they tended to spend more times indoors and therefore had less need for darker skin.

What's wrong with recognizing these facts and allowing different ability bonuses and penalties to represent them?

Ignoring the differences between people and cultures is just as bad as discriminating because of them; in fact, it IS discrimination, just of a different *ahem* colour. I don't see any reason why any reasonable human being would have a problem with any reasonable, balanced, objective evaluation of each culture's and people's strengths and weaknesses.

As for the original question that started this thread, I'd recommend doing some research into the field of sociology and, to a lesser extent, anthropology. Sociology is basically the study of human culture where you'll find the most diversity in human beings anyway. The study of culture is a fascinating endeavour and I wish you all the best with your forays into it.
 
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"I stand by my ethnic slur: the French are filthy, pretensious savages!"

Slightly off-topic...for my recent d20 Modern steampunk one-shot, we talked long and hard about having a PC named Welshie. Tough Hero 6. The ultimate Welshman. All of his skills would be related to coal-mining and drinking...

In response to Fourecks...

I appreciate your point, but I don't think the differences between different races/ethnicities are well reflected by ability score modifiers.

Perhaps for cultural reasons, some groups are more likely to value certain traits...Intelligence is favored in Information Age cultures, whereas Wisdom is probably more important among more traditional cultures. In game terms, as people go up in level, they'll put those ability score points where they'll do the most good.

But when you start saying Abos get -2 Int, +2 Wis...that means that no Aborigine will EVER be the world's greatest scientist. And I just don't feel comfortable making that sort of prediction.

By the same token...Asians tend to be smaller than whites, but look at that Yao guy, or Akebono. Do either of those guys look like they took a -2 Strength?

Do Irishmen like myself take a -2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma to represent our silver tongues and fiery tempers?

How about Poles? -2 Int, +2 Con? I dunno...some pretty good scientists come out of Poland...

Once you start actually assigning penalties [or even bonuses] to real-life cultures...things get nasty real fast. And most of the obvious choices break down pretty quickly if you think about them a little...

Bonus class skills and favored classes? Now that's fine. That's culture, not potential.
 
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Why is it wrong to recognize differences? Honestly, because so many people use differences in ability as an excuse to treat each other as different in rights or treatment. If people didn't do things like that, we could celebrate differences... but people aren't utopians.

With that said, the person asking is, I think, asking for differences in culture, rather than "subraces of human".

In my story hour, this is handled largely by description, technology, and feat selection. In my story hour, the people of Theralis have a wide variety of shield & spear feats (some of which I made up just for them), and almost every citizen picks up one or two of those in their youth during their year of military service. Those feats, in large groups, result in an almost unbeatable military (given the local technology level), and emphasize the organization and military prowess of the Theralese people.

Of course, my story hour is more grecian than african in culture, so I'm not sure how useful that is to Kilmore :(.
 

Fourecks said:

White people have adapted too, because of their environment they tended to spend more times indoors and therefore had less need for darker skin.

Is that true? Or is it because of the positioning of our country (not OURS obviously but our very distant ancestors) of origin on this little sphere, UVs not getting through as much?

... although I do know that most computer-nerds now have got really, badly palid complexions!
 

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